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Old 08-17-2015, 10:34 AM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
9,783 posts, read 13,372,272 times
Reputation: 11313

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Also, an update:

Japan's emperor expresses 'deep remorse' over WW2 after Abe's 'watered-down apology': Shanghaiist

 
Old 08-17-2015, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Asia
2,761 posts, read 1,104,761 times
Reputation: 2989
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
what is wrong depends on how you look at it.
Oh, for goodness sake. You're just proving me correct.

I didn't say anything about whether China war right or wrong to suppress the students in Tiananmen Square on June 4, 1989.

All I said was that there is no dissent from the CCP's explanation for what happened. There are no universities in China holding classes that criticize the government's actions on 6/4. There are no newspapers or books that investigate the governments actions on 6/4. There are no Chinese movies that disagree with the government's decision to act against the students on 6/4.

Just admit it. The US is much better at criticizing US government acts that China is at doing the same. That was my point, countering someone else who claimed that the US is no better than China or Japan in this regard.

Of course the US is much better at self criticism than is China or Japan.

Try again!
 
Old 08-17-2015, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Asia
2,761 posts, read 1,104,761 times
Reputation: 2989
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
If they are fully aware of the consequence under the two scenarios, very few would be idealist enough to support the seemingly noble protests.
You calling them cowards?
 
Old 08-17-2015, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
9,783 posts, read 13,372,272 times
Reputation: 11313
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
I agree.

Apology is in fact a western culture.

The Chinese don't apologize, at least seldom verbally. An American husband will apologize saying "I am sorry, I was wrong" after a fight and the wife will be happy; a Chinese husband will typically say nothing but will simply do more household work to show his remorse.

This is why China is never satisfied no matter how many times Japan apologized. China cares more about what you do than what nice and touchy-feely things you said. yes, even if Abe takes off his pants and kneels down with all limbs on the ground, the Chinese wouldn't be happy, because that means absolutely nothing to start with. It is cheap. It is just for show and China despise such shows.

JAPAN, please stop apologize. Stopping being a total US lackey to contain China would be a good start.
I don't know how true that is... I hear people apologize frequently for things. Not in the same way that people do in Anglosphere countries - "sorry to bother you," "sorry about that" - my fiance will remind me that it comes across as odd to say "sorry" to waitstaff and the like here - but saying "sorry" is common enough here, and especially with post-cultural revolution couples. It's actually pretty much the same as in the West... a guy messes up, says he's sorry, buys flowers.
 
Old 08-17-2015, 11:49 AM
 
3,339 posts, read 2,084,387 times
Reputation: 2367
another important issue is that Japanese children are thought that they were the victims in WWII
 
Old 08-17-2015, 01:15 PM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,281,099 times
Reputation: 7586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salmonburgher View Post
You calling them cowards?
OK, you are probably too young to appreciate the complicated democracy in China issue.

Yes, I have respect for those students. I really do. Those students had the courage to stand against the government and demand what they think were their rights. That's very admirable.

But for the general good of China, democracy is not something you just want to have, nor should it be some sort of ultimate goal, as if without it, China's achievements meant nothing. One should be mature enough to understand it is unrealistic to have the western style democracy in China - the country was still too poor, people way too uneducated and the economy too fragile. If in 1989, China did successfully changed the regime, it would have been disastrous. Most urban residents won't be drive their private cars and traveling in Europe and North America, China wouldn't have become the second economy, wouldn't have built all the subways, airports and high speed rail, and millions of people wouldn't be able to enjoy the life they are now. All this for what? the title of being a democratic country? So that dissidents have their rights? So that western countries are finally happy?

There is no evidence that democracy leads necessarily to economic prosperity or improving living standard. Many people, including many idealistic Chinese (myself 20 years ago included) tend to believe if China is democratic, it would be like the US. I am assure you it won't. It will be more like India today.

yes, without draconian one-child policy which supposedly infringes on some "basic human rights", everyone would have as many children as they wanted, but China today would have 1.7 billion people, 400 million more to feed. With democratic governments, the various fractions will keep bickering like they do in America, and most of the infrastructure wouldn't have been built today (look at India again). All this for what, this beautiful pie in the sky which say "democracy"" freedom"? Right, it is so worth it.

Ask any Chinese citizens today if they want to move to democratic India or authoritarian China, and see how they react.

Again, I have but high respect for the students, but unfortunately they were used and exploited by people with all sorts of agendas, including American agencies who always wanted to see a mess and a collapse of "communist China". Fortunately the then China government made the decision to quash it quickly and restore stability and the economy, which matters far more than ideologies, was put back on track, despite the tainted name killing the protestors, something a democratic government will never do. The Chinese government actually did something the best for the country from a long term perspective, while western governments will always make the choice that sounds the least harmful in the short term (so that they can remain in power). That's the difference.

Looking back, I support the Chinese government's decision 100%.
 
Old 08-17-2015, 05:58 PM
 
1,379 posts, read 1,816,808 times
Reputation: 980
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
it has been the core principle of US foreign policy for the past 20 years at least that America wouldn't tolerate a competitor to challenge its supremacy.

We should all keep in mind behind all the political preaching, the sole and ultimate rationale is nothing but eternal US dominance. All its diplomatic rhetoric serves that purpose.

The US doesn't care about democracy, or freedom, human rights or even living standards of the Chinese people, yes, it talks about those things every, but it really doesn't care. If China were was poor as Zimbabwe and as insignificant as Laos, the US wouldn't even mention China in the first place no matter how horribly the government treats its citizens.
Reword this to the past 100 years and it will be more accurate. The US went to war with Japan precisely because the US was fearful of Japan cutting off the US from the Chinese market and also feared that Japan would use the resources of China to become stronger. WWII was essentially a war over colonies and resources not the war against evil that it is usually portrayed as. Thankfully karma came back against the US after the Pacific War ended as the CCP took over China who proceeded to default on all the loans that the US granted to China and nationalize all foreign properties in China and cut off unfettered access to the Chinese market. With the Communist takeover of China, it meant that the US would never achieve any sort of hegemony over Asia and that its hegemony would be limited to the periphery of Asia.
 
Old 08-17-2015, 06:43 PM
 
4,710 posts, read 3,624,053 times
Reputation: 7405
Quote:
Originally Posted by X14Freak View Post
Reword this to the past 100 years and it will be more accurate. The US went to war with Japan precisely because the US was fearful of Japan cutting off the US from the Chinese market and also feared that Japan would use the resources of China to become stronger. WWII was essentially a war over colonies and resources not the war against evil that it is usually portrayed as. Thankfully karma came back against the US after the Pacific War ended as the CCP took over China who proceeded to default on all the loans that the US granted to China and nationalize all foreign properties in China and cut off unfettered access to the Chinese market. With the Communist takeover of China, it meant that the US would never achieve any sort of hegemony over Asia and that its hegemony would be limited to the periphery of Asia.
If Chiang Kai-shek had won the Chinese civil war, China would be a giant version of a weak and pro-US banana republic like Brazil or the Philipines. It would be "free", weak, and essentially completely controlled by American business interests.
 
Old 08-17-2015, 06:44 PM
 
Location: Asia
2,761 posts, read 1,104,761 times
Reputation: 2989
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
OK, you are probably too young to appreciate the complicated democracy in China issue.

Yes, I have respect for those students. I really do. Those students had the courage to stand against the government and demand what they think were their rights. That's very admirable.

But for the general good of China, democracy is not something you just want to have, nor should it be some sort of ultimate goal, as if without it, China's achievements meant nothing. One should be mature enough to understand it is unrealistic to have the western style democracy in China - the country was still too poor, people way too uneducated and the economy too fragile. If in 1989, China did successfully changed the regime, it would have been disastrous. Most urban residents won't be drive their private cars and traveling in Europe and North America, China wouldn't have become the second economy, wouldn't have built all the subways, airports and high speed rail, and millions of people wouldn't be able to enjoy the life they are now. All this for what? the title of being a democratic country? So that dissidents have their rights? So that western countries are finally happy?

There is no evidence that democracy leads necessarily to economic prosperity or improving living standard. Many people, including many idealistic Chinese (myself 20 years ago included) tend to believe if China is democratic, it would be like the US. I am assure you it won't. It will be more like India today.

yes, without draconian one-child policy which supposedly infringes on some "basic human rights", everyone would have as many children as they wanted, but China today would have 1.7 billion people, 400 million more to feed. With democratic governments, the various fractions will keep bickering like they do in America, and most of the infrastructure wouldn't have been built today (look at India again). All this for what, this beautiful pie in the sky which say "democracy"" freedom"? Right, it is so worth it.

Ask any Chinese citizens today if they want to move to democratic India or authoritarian China, and see how they react.

Again, I have but high respect for the students, but unfortunately they were used and exploited by people with all sorts of agendas, including American agencies who always wanted to see a mess and a collapse of "communist China". Fortunately the then China government made the decision to quash it quickly and restore stability and the economy, which matters far more than ideologies, was put back on track, despite the tainted name killing the protestors, something a democratic government will never do. The Chinese government actually did something the best for the country from a long term perspective, while western governments will always make the choice that sounds the least harmful in the short term (so that they can remain in power). That's the difference.

Looking back, I support the Chinese government's decision 100%.
I'm sure that I'm older than you, by quite a bit.

Your reply above is still completely unresponsive to what I posted.

You cannot bring yourself to criticize the CCP. Again, thanks for proving my point!
 
Old 08-17-2015, 06:50 PM
 
Location: Asia
2,761 posts, read 1,104,761 times
Reputation: 2989
Quote:
Originally Posted by X14Freak View Post
Reword this to the past 100 years and it will be more accurate. The US went to war with Japan precisely because the US was fearful of Japan cutting off the US from the Chinese market and also feared that Japan would use the resources of China to become stronger. WWII was essentially a war over colonies and resources not the war against evil that it is usually portrayed as. Thankfully karma came back against the US after the Pacific War ended as the CCP took over China who proceeded to default on all the loans that the US granted to China and nationalize all foreign properties in China and cut off unfettered access to the Chinese market. With the Communist takeover of China, it meant that the US would never achieve any sort of hegemony over Asia and that its hegemony would be limited to the periphery of Asia.
And here we have Exhibit B, folks.

The CCP is the savior of China... 沒有共產黨沒有新中國!


And nothing the US does is without nefarious ulterior motive! Hegemony! I think that's the favorite word of the Chinese!



Tell us again how the US and China and Japan are all the same in terms of self-critique!

Hahahaha!
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