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Old 08-17-2015, 07:14 PM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
9,779 posts, read 13,353,482 times
Reputation: 11309

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salmonburgher View Post
I'd say that's incorrect.

The US has an entire industry devoted self-criticism, from Hollywood to popular and historic narrative/literature to academia.

How many classes are being taught in China that are critical of anything China has done to Vietnam or of anything Mao and or the CCP has done?

How many movies are made in China about Chinese oppression of Tibet and Xinjiang, and of 900 years of Chinese oppression of Vietnam?

Same goes for Japan. Japanese textbooks do not discuss Japanese atrocities committed in WWII.


We're not all the same in the way we critique our own histories. The US is far more self-critical than are either China or Japan.

Heck, on June 4, 1989, according to the CCP, nothing happened!
since this has led to a bigger debate since I slept and woke up... my point was mainly that no country or culture is particularly fond of criticism. the US definitely levels more criticism at itself than most other nations, certainly exponentially more than china. I can't scroll through my facebook feed without seeing articles friends posted, reminding me that because I'm a white dude, I need to constantly remind myself I have privileges that have made my life easier than they'd be for a blasian gender-fluid dwarf in a wheelchair; questioning whether I've reflected enough on American imjustices abroad between the time I open up my eyes and brush my teeth, or some meme about illegal ommkgration with a picture of a Native American askong me when I'm leaving.

there is nothing remotely close on Chinese social media. Even if the gov't allowed it to stay up, people wouldn't post it, because... why? It doesn't serve any real purpose to engage in unwavering self loathing and criticism.

Last edited by 415_s2k; 08-17-2015 at 07:24 PM..

 
Old 08-17-2015, 07:20 PM
 
Location: Asia
2,761 posts, read 1,101,784 times
Reputation: 2989
Quote:
Originally Posted by 415_s2k View Post
since this has led to a bigger debate since I slept and woke up... my point was mainly that no country or culture is particularly fond of criticism.
Again, we have an entire industry in the US devoted to self criticism. You don't have that in Japan or China.

Remember what the author, Bo Yang, stated in a speech at Harvard (in the US, not in China or Taiwan) on his book, The Ugly Chinaman?

For many years I've contemplated writing a book called The Ugly Chinaman. When the novel The Ugly American was published in the United States, the US State Department chose it as a guide to policy making. But when the Japanese ambassador to Argentina published a book called The Ugly Japanese, he was immediately recalled from his post. This is a good example of the gap that separates the East and the West. In China, for sure, things would be much worse. If I wrote a book called The Ugly Chinaman, you would soon be delivering me my meals in jail. In Taiwan, prisoners pay for their own food, which is the main reason why I haven't written such a book yet. For many years, however, I have been looking for an opportunity to speak about this subject in public, and to provide Chinese people in all walks of life with some food for thought--if not condemnation. Talking about this subject in public is no easy matter either. A group of people in Taipei once invited me to speak on this subject but when they heard the title of my speech, the invitation was swiftly withdrawn. Thus I am proud to say that this is the very first time I have lectured in public on the subject of 'The Ugly Chinaman'. I would like to thank all of you present for giving me this precious opportunity.

In 1950, Bo Yang was imprisoned for six months for listening to CCP radio broadcasts. Bo Yang was arrested again in 1967 because of his sarcastic "unwitting" criticism of Taiwan's dictator CKS. The KMT told Bo Yang that they could beat him to death at any time if he did not confess to his crimes... of criticism!

Last edited by Salmonburgher; 08-17-2015 at 08:31 PM..
 
Old 08-17-2015, 08:01 PM
 
1,378 posts, read 1,813,921 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salmonburgher View Post
And here we have Exhibit B, folks.

The CCP is the savior of China... 沒有共產黨沒有新中國!


And nothing the US does is without nefarious ulterior motive! Hegemony! I think that's the favorite word of the Chinese!



Tell us again how the US and China and Japan are all the same in terms of self-critique!

Hahahaha!
The US is a superpower and countries do not become great powers let alone superpowers by being benevolent. There has never been a great power that rose to that status by not applying bloodshed. Ask the millions of dead (and poisoned) Vietnamese, Japanese, Koreans, and Filipinos if the US is a benevolent country that has their interests at heart.

I also never proclaimed the CCP to be the saviors of China because they aren't. They are however a necessary evil as they united the disparate Chinese regions into one country. If you want to see what the Chinese would look like if they were divided, look at the Arabs and see how well they are doing. Americans always state that the nuclear bomb was a necessary evil that saved millions of lives, think of the CCP in that way as well.
 
Old 08-17-2015, 08:29 PM
 
Location: Asia
2,761 posts, read 1,101,784 times
Reputation: 2989
Quote:
Originally Posted by X14Freak View Post
The US is a superpower and countries do not become great powers let alone superpowers by being benevolent. There has never been a great power that rose to that status by not applying bloodshed. Ask the millions of dead (and poisoned) Vietnamese, Japanese, Koreans, and Filipinos if the US is a benevolent country that has their interests at heart.
You are still not getting the point. I am not arguing that the US has never done anything bad or stupid. I am saying that we are free to and do very much criticize the US Government in the US. There is an entire industry devoted to criticism of the US inside the US. We have two parties which constantly criticize the each other. We have an opposition party always which does little but criticize the ruling party.

You do not have that in China.

Quote:
Originally Posted by X14Freak View Post
I also never proclaimed the CCP to be the saviors of China because they aren't.
Go to China and criticize the CCP. LOUDLY.

Not praising does not equal criticizing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by X14Freak View Post
They are however a necessary evil as they united the disparate Chinese regions into one country. If you want to see what the Chinese would look like if they were divided, look at the Arabs and see how well they are doing. Americans always state that the nuclear bomb was a necessary evil that saved millions of lives, think of the CCP in that way as well.
I'm not interested in your spin. Just admit that the US is much better at self criticism than China.

Is that so difficult?
 
Old 08-17-2015, 10:04 PM
 
43 posts, read 43,830 times
Reputation: 37
japan had not apologized enough....japan paid korean only about 1/30 of compensation they paid to philipines which was damaged far less than korea....that's far less from enough of money....park junghee only accepted the poor amount because he will use it for his own and his gyungsangdo people... japan need to pay 30 times more than they paid to korean to compensate enough...same with germany to greece....germany need to pay compensation to greece fast but they don't have any will to do it it seems...And when Japan paid full amount of compensation to korea, I want japan to make sure it contributed to all korean people not to only dictator and his beloved gyungsangdo people....Japan knew it but did not care weather money goes to korean people or not because they liked the dictator because he would accepted the extremely small amount of compensation for his sake.....that's not really apologizing but doing it formally and externally only for the sake of appearing good to other countries...

And, apologizing for murdering people is something you feel and do forever...It's not something like look I apologized so I owe you nothing....if you have that kind of attitude...apologizing is not really apologizing but rather laughing at victims.....

Last edited by good3352; 08-17-2015 at 10:17 PM..
 
Old 08-17-2015, 10:56 PM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
9,779 posts, read 13,353,482 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by good3352 View Post
And, apologizing for murdering people is something you feel and do forever...It's not something like look I apologized so I owe you nothing....if you have that kind of attitude...apologizing is not really apologizing but rather laughing at victims.....
Sure.

Except, again, 80% of the Japanese alive now were born after the war's conclusion, and didn't murder anyone. It's not their responsibility to apologize, and yet, they have continued to do so. I think that Korea and China have, to an extent, come to enjoy being in the position to rebuff the apologies offered, even though similarly, the very vast bulk of them also had nothing to do with the war itself.
 
Old 08-17-2015, 11:01 PM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
9,779 posts, read 13,353,482 times
Reputation: 11309
Quote:
Originally Posted by X14Freak View Post
The US is a superpower and countries do not become great powers let alone superpowers by being benevolent. There has never been a great power that rose to that status by not applying bloodshed. Ask the millions of dead (and poisoned) Vietnamese, Japanese, Koreans, and Filipinos if the US is a benevolent country that has their interests at heart.
Ask the millions of people who died at the hands of the Japanese if they care much.

Ask the millions of Koreans and Vietnamese who were killed by other Koreans or Vietnamese in the same conflicts what they think.

Quote:
I also never proclaimed the CCP to be the saviors of China because they aren't. They are however a necessary evil as they united the disparate Chinese regions into one country. If you want to see what the Chinese would look like if they were divided, look at the Arabs and see how well they are doing. Americans always state that the nuclear bomb was a necessary evil that saved millions of lives, think of the CCP in that way as well.
But, couldn't the same thing be said of the US, being a necessary evil to reign in the disparate regions under one umbrella subject to the same federal laws?
 
Old 08-17-2015, 11:18 PM
 
43 posts, read 43,830 times
Reputation: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by 415_s2k View Post
Sure.

Except, again, 80% of the Japanese alive now were born after the war's conclusion, and didn't murder anyone. It's not their responsibility to apologize, and yet, they have continued to do so. I think that Korea and China have, to an extent, come to enjoy being in the position to rebuff the apologies offered, even though similarly, the very vast bulk of them also had nothing to do with the war itself.
thats like saying to murdered family you are enjoying the position to rebuff the apologies offered...you germanic americans became too politically correct that you say inhuman things without realizing...its right things to apologize...saying its in the past so lets forget is not apologizing but rather laughing at the victims...
 
Old 08-17-2015, 11:38 PM
 
1,378 posts, read 1,813,921 times
Reputation: 980
Quote:
Originally Posted by good3352 View Post
thats like saying to murdered family you are enjoying the position to rebuff the apologies offered...you germanic americans became too politically correct that you say inhuman things without realizing...its right things to apologize...saying its in the past so lets forget is not apologizing but rather laughing at the victims...
He's right though. At what point is an apology not enough? Japanese textbooks and the Yasukuni Shrine are their business and not really something outsiders should interfere with. You hardly ever see Japan interfere with Chinese or Korean textbooks which are equally full of omissions and lies. Outside of South Korea and China, no one in Asia cares about Japan's apologies, Taiwan which is a foreign colony hardly ever raises a voice about it.

Before you mention Germany, Germany is an exception and even they haven't apologized for all of its atrocities. For example, Germany has for the past one hundred years ignored its genocide in Namibia. Other countries are far worse than Japan when it comes to apologies. Russia for example regard any kind of demand for an apology over its atrocities to Eastern European countries in WWII to be an affront and an insult to the memories of its fallen soldiers. Croatia has never apologized for the Ustasha and pro-Ustasha sentiment is rife throughout the country. The Ustasha was a Croatian nationalist organization during WWII that openly collaborated with the Nazis and instituted a genocide (complete with concentration camps) against Serbs and Jews in Croatia. Croatia's former president Franjo Tudjman was also an apologist for the Ustasha.

Read this book for a more nuanced view of Japan's apologies:

http://www.amazon.com/Japans-Contest.../dp/0415487803

What you get from the mainstream media is far too tainted and biased.
 
Old 08-17-2015, 11:39 PM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
9,779 posts, read 13,353,482 times
Reputation: 11309
Quote:
Originally Posted by good3352 View Post
thats like saying to murdered family you are enjoying the position to rebuff the apologies offered...
If my family was murdered, id want the killer to pay. I qouldnt give a crap what his children or grandchildren said or didnt say, and if they apologized, i'd certainly acept it.

Quote:
germanic americans became too politically correct that you say inhuman things without realizing...
I'm not politically correct in the least and if what I said here is "offensive" to someone, rhen I believe they deserve to be offended.

Quote:
its right things to apologize...saying its in the past so lets forget is not apologizing but rather laughing at the victims...
This would be relevant if we were talking about the perpetrators or people who were alive at the time and supported Imperial Japan's policies which led to so much suffering, and the people who experienced this suffering, and there was also an absence of apologies.

Because we are talking about the descendants of the victims, and there are indeed apologies that have Ben made many times, it is another matter entirely.
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