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Old 08-28-2015, 11:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
not denying the problem you mentioned, but where the hell do you think the middle class public can do or go?

Let me ask when, when the UK experienced the worst air pollution bad enough to kill cows, how much was their GDP per capita? The surprising answer is more or less the same as China today (inflation adjusted).

People attack China for lack of democracy, but how many years western countries adopted democracy? Spain and Portugal in the 1970s. The US in the 1965, almost 200 years after the country was established.

The point is, you can't rush things.
Yes, but China is too big, and the earth can't wait that long. If you go by the same time lag for others, we will all be dead from China's excesses before the Chinese smarten up. The whole world would end, choked in China's smog and drowning in its toxic waste, or completely blown up, like Tianjin.

I am not being overly critical here of China, but it does have the power of hindsight (others did not because China is a late-industrializer) and far better technology. So China needs to be smart, proactive and learn from others' mistakes to leapfrog the problems. There is no reason to repeat others' mistakes....I thought the Chinese, you included, are smart enough to see this.
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Old 08-28-2015, 09:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
The point is, you can't rush things.
Agreed on this point, but, I can't see how democracy would improve China.
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Old 08-28-2015, 11:31 PM
 
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Humans are greedy and selfish by nature, no matter where you go you will see that manifest itself within a society. The key to a happy life is to let go of your expectations and accept reality for what it is. The world won't change because human nature won't change.
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Old 08-28-2015, 11:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
The explosion in Tianjin was tragic and predictable....because this is how China works, unfortunately.

It seems that official corruption has been with Chinese civilization since its inception.....nothing really surprising here. I guess this is why rich Chinese people who can leave China, leave en masse.

In many important ways, China is still just a gigantic third world country struggling to find a way to stay afloat in its own pool of crap....So much for the "China Threat" to others because China is its own biggest threat!

Tianjin Tragedy Is A Painful Reflection Of How China Largely Works : Parallels : NPR
I am Chinese and I think the whole China on the rise thing is mostly just smokes and mirrors. Autocratic governments like to pull a lot of vanity/pr stunts to retain control. Look at the 36 Berlin Olympics Games. The biggest problem with China is lack of discipline and ethics, the obssession with face, the culture that value appearance over substance.
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Old 08-29-2015, 04:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by littlemissrock View Post
I am Chinese and I think the whole China on the rise thing is mostly just smokes and mirrors. Autocratic governments like to pull a lot of vanity/pr stunts to retain control. Look at the 36 Berlin Olympics Games. The biggest problem with China is lack of discipline and ethics, the obssession with face, the culture that value appearance over substance.
All these cultural traits have been around before the PRC. Efficient autocracy, as practiced by the PRC, simply allow for these traits to manifest themselves in certain ways when the center becomes weak or corrupt. But, democracy won't eliminate or reduce these traits either. In fact, I can imagine in certain ways, democracy will make these cultural traits even worse. Going back to my point about certain problems with Chinese civilization/culture. It is inherently selfish and extremely exclusive to family and clans, at the expense of country and the larger community. This is why the Chinese are so selfish, so unable to unite as a people historically, and can only exist as a nation under a powerful, authoritarian government that rules with an iron fist. If you look at Chinese history, China was a strong state only under this type of government. Hence, those who advocate for western style democracy in China may, or may not, be intentionally wishing for Chinese weakness. It's obvious when you see the question in Chinese historical context.

I think the only way to break this bad Chinese cultural habit of selfishness is through the spread of communication technology where the Chinese individuals, for the first time in history, can break out of their limiting and stifling family lineage defined little cocoons and begin to find others beyond their immediate relations. Then slowly, the Chinese individuals can develop civil society. In the mean time, China can only stay together as a viable state under authoritarianism, which can either keep selfishness in check, or make it worse. China lives on a knife's edge and Chinese progress depends on a precarious balance of these forces that can at any moment tip over and bring disaster for huge numbers of people, which now includes the outside world because Chinese power has expanded beyond China's border. This is why it's a horrible job to be the leader of China.
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Old 08-29-2015, 06:54 AM
 
931 posts, read 614,962 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
All these cultural traits have been around before the PRC. Efficient autocracy, as practiced by the PRC, simply allow for these traits to manifest themselves in certain ways when the center becomes weak or corrupt. But, democracy won't eliminate or reduce these traits either. In fact, I can imagine in certain ways, democracy will make these cultural traits even worse. Going back to my point about certain problems with Chinese civilization/culture. It is inherently selfish and extremely exclusive to family and clans, at the expense of country and the larger community. This is why the Chinese are so selfish, so unable to unite as a people historically, and can only exist as a nation under a powerful, authoritarian government that rules with an iron fist. If you look at Chinese history, China was a strong state only under this type of government. Hence, those who advocate for western style democracy in China may, or may not, be intentionally wishing for Chinese weakness. It's obvious when you see the question in Chinese historical context.

I think the only way to break this bad Chinese cultural habit of selfishness is through the spread of communication technology where the Chinese individuals, for the first time in history, can break out of their limiting and stifling family lineage defined little cocoons and begin to find others beyond their immediate relations. Then slowly, the Chinese individuals can develop civil society. In the mean time, China can only stay together as a viable state under authoritarianism, which can either keep selfishness in check, or make it worse. China lives on a knife's edge and Chinese progress depends on a precarious balance of these forces that can at any moment tip over and bring disaster for huge numbers of people, which now includes the outside world because Chinese power has expanded beyond China's border. This is why it's a horrible job to be the leader of China.

All humans are selfish, China does not have the worst income inequality.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ncome_equality
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Old 08-29-2015, 12:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littlemissrock View Post
All humans are selfish, China does not have the worst income inequality.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ncome_equality
Sure, but for a country with a communist dictatorship, it's sort of ridiculous to even have China's level of income inequity. But this is not the problem. The problem is the age old Chinese cultural trait of selfishness, which I think the Chinese make into a high art because they are so smart and so entrepreneurial. I think this is why corruption is so mind blowing in China.

Since ancient times, emperors have been chopping off corrupt officials' head. Today, the CCP investigators are sending corrupt officials or tigers to the firing squad. But corruption is still as big and bad as ever. Some people say CCP corruption is now worse than the KMT corruption of the past.
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Old 08-29-2015, 07:50 PM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,281,099 times
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Originally Posted by Yanagisawa View Post
Agreed on this point, but, I can't see how democracy would improve China.
I agree. I don't want democracy for the Chinese people any time soon. Not gonna do much good. China will get a better reputation sure but most people will be worse off.
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Old 08-29-2015, 07:57 PM
 
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It's time to let China go back to the 16th century and stay there.
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Old 08-30-2015, 03:09 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Nodpete View Post
It's time to let China go back to the 16th century and stay there.
Yes, you and which army?
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