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Old 12-28-2015, 03:11 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
5,553 posts, read 2,890,019 times
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It used to be that HK was the gateway to China for western businesses, the liason for companies trying to enter China. Nowadays, they just go right straight to Shenzhen or Guangzhou or other Chinese cities like Shanghai, making HK redundant.

Will HK reinvent itself or will it decline? What do you see happening?
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Old 12-28-2015, 06:44 PM
 
28 posts, read 22,949 times
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For your information HK florished already well before China opened its doors. HK had many factories before the 1990s. The saying that HK relied on China for its success is not quite correct. HK grow and grow highly while China was busy with the Cultural revolution. The chaos in China in the 1950s and 1960s brought HK cheap labour migrating from China.

Shenzhen? my ass. This city relies on HK International Airport for most of their international travel. How many non-China flights Shenzhen Airport have daily compared with HKIA?

And https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Shenzhen_landslide


Shenzhen is very badly managed. The government is very corrupted. The streets are ****ing dirty and the society is a mess.

All the mainland chinese cities are copying the developed countries or Hong Kong now but there are still something they are lacking, making them being rank lower than well established cities in Asia like Tokyo, Dubai, Singapore and Hong Kong. Some americans may say even Seoul and Taipei are still better than Shanghai.

I got the chance to meet a new Shanghai local couple and they said they were not happy with their and their daughter's level of English. Not every Shanghainese is highly educated. My western businessman friend, had a big trouble visiting a doctor at Shanghai. English spoken by the hospital's reception is crappy, fees are random, no money no treatment including emergency cases, ambulance paramedics speak no english and arrive time is very slow. He went to the government departments and they do not speak english, have to hire an interpreter. Their legal system is not fair and mature too.

The best and easiest places to do business according to western rankings are still HK and Singapore, low tax and corruption, high use of English in business, highly efficient professionals and workers, well adapted to international business acitivies, free movement of capital and goods. China is far from top of the list.

Last edited by Digitalage3; 12-28-2015 at 06:56 PM..
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Old 02-25-2016, 09:30 AM
 
2 posts, read 1,570 times
Reputation: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digitalage3 View Post
For your information HK florished already well before China opened its doors. HK had many factories before the 1990s. The saying that HK relied on China for its success is not quite correct. HK grow and grow highly while China was busy with the Cultural revolution. The chaos in China in the 1950s and 1960s brought HK cheap labour migrating from China.

Shenzhen? my ass. This city relies on HK International Airport for most of their international travel. How many non-China flights Shenzhen Airport have daily compared with HKIA?

And https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Shenzhen_landslide


Shenzhen is very badly managed. The government is very corrupted. The streets are ****ing dirty and the society is a mess.

All the mainland chinese cities are copying the developed countries or Hong Kong now but there are still something they are lacking, making them being rank lower than well established cities in Asia like Tokyo, Dubai, Singapore and Hong Kong. Some americans may say even Seoul and Taipei are still better than Shanghai.

I got the chance to meet a new Shanghai local couple and they said they were not happy with their and their daughter's level of English. Not every Shanghainese is highly educated. My western businessman friend, had a big trouble visiting a doctor at Shanghai. English spoken by the hospital's reception is crappy, fees are random, no money no treatment including emergency cases, ambulance paramedics speak no english and arrive time is very slow. He went to the government departments and they do not speak english, have to hire an interpreter. Their legal system is not fair and mature too.

The best and easiest places to do business according to western rankings are still HK and Singapore, low tax and corruption, high use of English in business, highly efficient professionals and workers, well adapted to international business acitivies, free movement of capital and goods. China is far from top of the list.
Are you freaking serious? Shenzhen, Dirty? Corrupted? Are you just gonna randomly apply what's you've learned from your TV about China on Shenzhen? I don't care what's your opinion on other cities, but I'm sure that Shenzhen is much much cleaner than New York. Shenzhen is badly managed and corrupted are just bulls**t. China itself might be, but not this city. I my opinion, Shenzhen is much more interesting than Hongkong. Please educate yourself with more information before posting this.
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Old 02-25-2016, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
9,779 posts, read 13,347,718 times
Reputation: 11309
Quote:
Originally Posted by simbaxu View Post
Are you freaking serious? Shenzhen, Dirty? Corrupted? Are you just gonna randomly apply what's you've learned from your TV about China on Shenzhen? I don't care what's your opinion on other cities, but I'm sure that Shenzhen is much much cleaner than New York. Shenzhen is badly managed and corrupted are just bulls**t. China itself might be, but not this city. I my opinion, Shenzhen is much more interesting than Hongkong. Please educate yourself with more information before posting this.
Hmm.

Cleaner than NYC? possibly. SZ has corruption like anywhere else in China, not as bad as a second or third tier interior for sure but...

More interesting than HK? Lol, you are the first person I've ever heard say that who isn't a Mainlander who just read an aeticle about HK'ers asserting that they aren't Mainlanders (maybe thats what you are?). It is fascinating as a case study of what a collection of farming villages can become in three decades when a government puts a huge amount of resources behind it, but it is a cultural void, and basically anyone you talk to here - including native SZ'ers - will tell you that.
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Old 02-25-2016, 11:48 AM
 
4,666 posts, read 3,607,316 times
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Well, it might be hard for those HKers with their weird Queen's English accent to accept, but their city is on a steady decline because China no longer needs it. That's the truth. It's just be a tourist trap for a bit before it becomes not much of anything. Nice skyline though.
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Old 02-25-2016, 01:50 PM
 
2 posts, read 1,570 times
Reputation: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by 415_s2k View Post
Hmm.

Cleaner than NYC? possibly. SZ has corruption like anywhere else in China, not as bad as a second or third tier interior for sure but...

More interesting than HK? Lol, you are the first person I've ever heard say that who isn't a Mainlander who just read an aeticle about HK'ers asserting that they aren't Mainlanders (maybe thats what you are?). It is fascinating as a case study of what a collection of farming villages can become in three decades when a government puts a huge amount of resources behind it, but it is a cultural void, and basically anyone you talk to here - including native SZ'ers - will tell you that.
Don't, just don't judge. I like Hong Kong and other cities, but honestly, I cannot agree with you in the part of culture and stuff. Shenzhen is indeed very young, and its local culture does not involve typical Chinese elements, but it does have a lot of interesting elements like local rock trend n stuff. It has its own unique young culture and I like that when I lived there for 2 years. I like Hong Kong but, for me it's just a place to shop. Shenzhen might not be appealing to foreigners cause all foreigners are expecting to see some traditional Chinese elements. But to people like me, love it.
About corruption, I'm still not sure about, so just don't judge.
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Old 02-25-2016, 08:43 PM
 
919 posts, read 602,186 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simbaxu View Post
Don't, just don't judge. I like Hong Kong and other cities, but honestly, I cannot agree with you in the part of culture and stuff. Shenzhen is indeed very young, and its local culture does not involve typical Chinese elements, but it does have a lot of interesting elements like local rock trend n stuff. It has its own unique young culture and I like that when I lived there for 2 years. I like Hong Kong but, for me it's just a place to shop. Shenzhen might not be appealing to foreigners cause all foreigners are expecting to see some traditional Chinese elements. But to people like me, love it.
About corruption, I'm still not sure about, so just don't judge.
Not many people had used the old Shenzhen station but I had when I lived in Guangzhou, and had lived in Shenzhen for a year or so.

Shenzhen is an interesting city, which located in Guangdong but its lingua franca is Mandarin.

However, I would choose HK anyday. HK is only place to shop? You had missed many things in HK.
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Old 02-25-2016, 09:24 PM
 
1,099 posts, read 1,667,247 times
Reputation: 966
Quote:
Originally Posted by simbaxu View Post
Are you freaking serious? Shenzhen, Dirty? Corrupted? Are you just gonna randomly apply what's you've learned from your TV about China on Shenzhen? I don't care what's your opinion on other cities, but I'm sure that Shenzhen is much much cleaner than New York. Shenzhen is badly managed and corrupted are just bulls**t. China itself might be, but not this city. I my opinion, Shenzhen is much more interesting than Hongkong. Please educate yourself with more information before posting this.
At least they do not have garbage landslides in New York! https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-and-rainfall/
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Old 02-26-2016, 12:50 AM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
9,779 posts, read 13,347,718 times
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Originally Posted by GoldenTiger View Post
At least they do not have garbage landslides in New York! https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-and-rainfall/
Yep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by simbaxu
Don't, just don't judge. I like Hong Kong and other cities, but honestly, I cannot agree with you in the part of culture and stuff. Shenzhen is indeed very young, and its local culture does not involve typical Chinese elements, but it does have a lot of interesting elements like local rock trend n stuff. It has its own unique young culture and I like that when I lived there for 2 years. I like Hong Kong but, for me it's just a place to shop. Shenzhen might not be appealing to foreigners cause all foreigners are expecting to see some traditional Chinese elements. But to people like me, love it.
About corruption, I'm still not sure about, so just don't judge.
I go there 2x a month, have friends, family, and business dealings there, so I'm not "judging," I'm sharing observations.

I like Shenzhen, actually... My next restaurant will probably be there. The lack of traditional culture does lead to some degree of progressiveness or, dare i say, Westernization versus other Chinese cities (acceptance of homosexuality, willingness to experiment creatively, etc), but, it also lacks a cohesive identity as other cities do.

Foreign tourists come to China for historical attractions, but after a couple months or so, most expats lose interest in having a cultural experience every time they go to the store or take the metro... So actually, Shenzhen is extremely popular among expats. I know many Chinese people - particularly young nationalists and overseas Chinese searching for an identity - who deride SZ as being "too Western." SZ was built up as a hub for foreign trade and has had an expat community since its inception; many HK'ers live there and many SZ'ers have family in HK, so they are actually fairly intertwined socially, another sticking point to grinning idiots who go to bed at night imagining China smashing Hong Kong with an iron phallus as punishment for not being Chinese enough.

SZ's rock scene is largely a cross-border carryover from HK's rock scene, which has existed for decades. Same goes for its hip hop, and general counterculture scenes. I think it's great that it exists and pulls in more locals (GZ has these scenes but they are primarily driven by expats), but it's ironic that you would poo-poo HK when it actually has spades of the things you say you like about SZ.
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Old 02-26-2016, 01:59 AM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
9,779 posts, read 13,347,718 times
Reputation: 11309
Quote:
Originally Posted by antinimby View Post
It used to be that HK was the gateway to China for western businesses, the liason for companies trying to enter China. Nowadays, they just go right straight to Shenzhen or Guangzhou or other Chinese cities like Shanghai, making HK redundant.

Will HK reinvent itself or will it decline? What do you see happening?
A lot of foreign businesses are either pulling out, scalaing back, or avoiding operations in China these days. While China has managed to create a robust domestic sector in an admirable amount of time and so the argument can be made that - again, domestically- China doesn't need foreign enterprises, foreign businesses are increasingly wary of a lack of IP protection, rampant theft, corporate espionage, sabotage, etc etc etc. More troubling to businesses is that there is not only next to no government oversight or protection for this, but in many cases, the government is complicit in this. Whether at the individual level, commercial level, or national level, China operates on a platform that dictates that they will always favor the Chinese party. If there is a suit multibillion-dollar, globally-reaching international company and a Chinese startup accused of stealing their IP, the Chinese company is 100% guaranteed to win. If a foreigner opens a business in China through all legal avenues and then a Chinese person steals their business name, logo, and service, the Chinese person is 100% guaranteed to win (this is why my business is in my wife's name).

Because of stuff like this, China's restriction of currency in and out of China, its slowing economy, and the government's increasing exertion of force over business and media, places like Hong Kong, Singapore, and increasingly, Thailand and Vietnam will continue to be attractive alternatives to business here. The business here won't dry up or stop, but, the freewheeling aughts and early teens are over.

How HK deals with the gradual shift towards CCP administration (or more accurately, how the CCP deals with HK) remains to be seen, and we most likely won't know how it will be for at least another decade or two. I think that it's possible that as the Chinese economy slows and foreign businesses pack up and leave, the CCP may decide to extend the economic liberalism of HK for some time longer than it may have felt fit to do had Mainland China maintained its stratospheric growth.
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