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Old 03-21-2016, 12:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
Idk what makes you think that you can't discuss arts, science, literature, politics in Taiwanese/Minnan. You probably have never heard of it, but people do that. There are a few courses in college conducted in Taiwanese and no, they are not Let's Learn Taiwanese 101 and 102.
I watch some Taiwanese TV shows, including programs in politics.
Often times they talk in Minnan but insert a lot of Mandarin (code switch).
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Old 03-21-2016, 04:29 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yueng-ling View Post
Northern Wu has no real 濁音 in word-initial positions. It is well known. The transcription is also phonological not phonetic.

You seem to emphasize 入聲 a lot. But Chinese phonology is way beyond that. Shanghainese has fewer syllables than Mandarin, and Shanghainese has only 2 real tones. Theoretically, Shanghainese has 5 tones, but two of them are found on 入聲 syllables only, and all the tones are dependant on 清音 vs 濁音, except for the contrast between 陰平 and 陰去。On the other hand, Mandarin has 4 real tones.

Cantonese has no 清音 vs 濁音. Basically, for old 濁音 it is the same as Mandarin in terms of 平聲送氣,仄聲不送氣. Therefore, 凍 and 洞 have the same onset in Cantonese and Mandarin, but different onsets in Shanghainese. In Min, 同 and 洞 often have the same onset, but Cantonese and Mandarin both have a contrast here.

Oh I do not want to talk too much about Chinese phonology, but you should not assume you know more here.
Yes, I do. No 入聲 in Mandarin is one of the most distinctive characteristics. Why do you try to ignore that?

And what about palatalization? This is another characteristic in Mandarin.

You seem to emphasize tones a lot.
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Old 03-21-2016, 08:00 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yanagisawa View Post
Yes, I do. No 入聲 in Mandarin is one of the most distinctive characteristics. Why do you try to ignore that?

And what about palatalization? This is another characteristic in Mandarin.

You seem to emphasize tones a lot.
Tones are very important features of Chinese. Often times, changing tones can change intelligibility a lot. Many Shanghainese (older ones) speak Mandarin with rusheng syllables, but otherwise correct tones, and they are perfectly understandable.
But i was not just talking about tones, also the voicing feature of onsets.
Shanghainese also does not have real diphthongs, another unique feature.
Palatalization has very simple rules so it is not difficult for people to transfer it.

Many northern people speak decent Cantonese after living in Hong Kong or Guangdong for a few years, but very few can speak Shanghainese well. It had been true even before putonghua was widely taught.
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Old 03-21-2016, 01:40 PM
 
Location: Taipei
6,774 posts, read 5,122,827 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yueng-ling View Post
I watch some Taiwanese TV shows, including programs in politics.
Often times they talk in Minnan but insert a lot of Mandarin (code switch).
For a very long period of time, Minnan/Taiwanese speakers were fiercely discriminated by the government, such action has lead to a fracture of the inheritance of the language, even today, Minnan/Taiwanese is largely considered a low-class and crass language, and the education system, while no longer prohibits it, pays very little attention to the education of the language.

The result of this is that the more modern concepts/terms have no corresponding words in Minnan/Taiwanese, so yeah, people have to switch to Mandarin while discussing certain topics.

But that doesn't mean it's impossible to use Minnan/Taiwanese in professional fields, and it certainly doesn't mean that it's a crippled language that needs help from Mandarin. There are quite a lot of old folks in Taiwan (and I'm sure in China as well) who can only speak Minnan and have very limited understanding of Mandarin. My grandparents are some of them.

They'd have to be old enough though. The guests or hosts on those (horrid) TV shows are mostly 50 or 60 at most.
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Old 03-21-2016, 05:03 PM
 
1,424 posts, read 735,401 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
For a very long period of time, Minnan/Taiwanese speakers were fiercely discriminated by the government, such action has lead to a fracture of the inheritance of the language, even today, Minnan/Taiwanese is largely considered a low-class and crass language, and the education system, while no longer prohibits it, pays very little attention to the education of the language.

The result of this is that the more modern concepts/terms have no corresponding words in Minnan/Taiwanese, so yeah, people have to switch to Mandarin while discussing certain topics.

But that doesn't mean it's impossible to use Minnan/Taiwanese in professional fields, and it certainly doesn't mean that it's a crippled language that needs help from Mandarin. There are quite a lot of old folks in Taiwan (and I'm sure in China as well) who can only speak Minnan and have very limited understanding of Mandarin. My grandparents are some of them.

They'd have to be old enough though. The guests or hosts on those (horrid) TV shows are mostly 50 or 60 at most.
Of course, all languages have the same potential. No language is above another by nature.
But we are talking about the reality, not potential.

The truth is only several dialects in China can be successfully used in TV programs on politics, for example. It is just the reality. The old Taiwanese people who cannot speak Mandarin are probably not capable of talking about some things (such as politics) efficiently and accurately.
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Old 03-22-2016, 09:56 AM
 
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All of East Asia would be very different had peanut head Chiang Kai-shek had the balls to station Chinese troops in occupied Japan after the war, like Roosevelt had invited him to do. Instead, he declined and chose instead to hide in China and get his arse handed to him by the grubby Chinese Communists. I guess if the Chinese did not have a civil war, Chinese troops would have occupied Japan for a decade after the war, and sino-japanese relations would be very different today. The Japanese would not think so haughtily of themselves like they do today.
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Old 03-24-2016, 12:38 AM
 
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No doubt China and Taiwan, Korea and Vietnam would be much better if they did not have civil wars.
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Old 03-26-2016, 04:34 AM
 
919 posts, read 602,846 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yueng-ling View Post
Tones are very important features of Chinese. Often times, changing tones can change intelligibility a lot. Many Shanghainese (older ones) speak Mandarin with rusheng syllables, but otherwise correct tones, and they are perfectly understandable.
But i was not just talking about tones, also the voicing feature of onsets.
Shanghainese also does not have real diphthongs, another unique feature.
Palatalization has very simple rules so it is not difficult for people to transfer it.

Many northern people speak decent Cantonese after living in Hong Kong or Guangdong for a few years, but very few can speak Shanghainese well. It had been true even before putonghua was widely taught.
What we are talking about is "closeness", not whether a particular rule is simple or not. There are palatalization in Mandarin and Shanghainese. That's the point I am making.

BTW, do you have any data about how many northern people speak Cantonese or Shanghainese? I know many northern people who can speak either Cantonese or Shanghainese.
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Old 03-26-2016, 05:22 PM
 
1,424 posts, read 735,401 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yanagisawa View Post
What we are talking about is "closeness", not whether a particular rule is simple or not. There are palatalization in Mandarin and Shanghainese. That's the point I am making.

BTW, do you have any data about how many northern people speak Cantonese or Shanghainese? I know many northern people who can speak either Cantonese or Shanghainese.
Wu phonology is very different from Mandarin phonology. From voicing features of consonants to diphthongs of vowels, to tones. The vocabulary is very different too.

Cantonese appears difficult to learn but one can grasp it quickly, because the mapping from Cantonese to Mandarin is pretty clear. I never lived in Guangdong but I understand Cantonese TV news 90%. I can barely understand 70% Shanghainese and less other Wu dialects.

According to some scholar, Mandarin and Cantonese both derive from ancient 秦晉方言 but Wu derive from ancient 楚方言. Of course, this is just a over simplified view.
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Old 03-26-2016, 06:11 PM
 
Location: In the heights
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Maybe if the second sino-japanese war and pacific front of world war ii never happened, but how exactly would japan have internally checked its aggression and prevented that?
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