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Old 04-20-2016, 07:28 PM
 
4,682 posts, read 3,610,867 times
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[quote=Salmonburgher;43783570]That was either an accident,

OR

NATO deliberately bombed the Chinese embassy after discovering it was being used to transmit Yugoslav army communications.

If it was an accident, then you have nothing.

If the Chinese were poking their noses where they didn't belong, then they got their noses poked back, and hard!

I don't see a problem.[/QUOTE







This is the reason why the Chinese are investing so heavily in their military today....it's to deal with Americans with your kind of attitude.
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Old 04-20-2016, 07:32 PM
 
4,682 posts, read 3,610,867 times
Reputation: 7381
Quote:
Originally Posted by X14Freak View Post
Because the US never screwed anyone over. The US is an angel who defecates rainbows everywhere it steps. Surely the millions of dead Koreans, thousands of dead Iraqis, and millions of poisoned Vietnamese are grateful for its kindness.

I personally don't care if China is screwing people over, I mostly just want them to expel the US from the Western Pacific and upset the current international order and change the balance of power. Whether the balance of power is in China's favor is irrelevant to me, I just want the US's influence in Asia to be greatly diminished.
Well, this will happen sooner or later.
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Old 04-20-2016, 07:42 PM
 
Location: Asia
2,761 posts, read 1,101,492 times
Reputation: 2989
Quote:
Originally Posted by X14Freak View Post
I personally don't care if China is screwing people over, I mostly just want them to expel the US from the Western Pacific and upset the current international order and change the balance of power. Whether the balance of power is in China's favor is irrelevant to me, I just want the US's influence in Asia to be greatly diminished.
Careful what you wish for!

Remember the last time an Asian power decided that it alone, by virtue of race, should hold power in the Pacific? Does the Greater East-Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere mean anything to you?

Remember how well that worked out for the Chinese?

The Chinese moaned and cried while the Japanese whipped the snot out of the Chinese and raped Chinese women, as the Chinese men were unable to protect them.

Fortunately for the Chinese people, the US came to their aid and stomped the Japanese while the Chinese power-hungry battled each other rather than put up a united front against the Japanese aggressors.

No, I think US supremacy in East Asia has been good for everyone. Everyone has prospered, including the Chinese.
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Old 04-20-2016, 07:44 PM
 
Location: Asia
2,761 posts, read 1,101,492 times
Reputation: 2989
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
This is the reason why the Chinese are investing so heavily in their military today....it's to deal with Americans with your kind of attitude.
You demonstrate your ignorance and blind Chinese nationalism, again.

My American attitude desires freedom for all, including the Chinese, but, also for the peoples of the other nations in the region.

Desiring FON for all is hardly a dangerous attitude.

Maybe you need to rethink this, objectively.

I've showed you why you are so very wrong regarding the UNCLOS and the incident where the Chinese hotdog pilot, "Wrong Way", rammed the innocent US plane. Why don't you consider my remarks instead of dismissing them out of hand as jingoistic?

When someone shows you where you are wrong, you should stop and reconsider your position.

Otherwise, you appear to have learned nothing.
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Old 04-20-2016, 07:46 PM
 
Location: Dothan AL
1,450 posts, read 876,126 times
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Russia has lots of untapped oil.
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Old 04-20-2016, 07:51 PM
 
1,378 posts, read 1,813,638 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salmonburgher View Post
Come on. Nobody ever said that.

We're talking about the situation in the SCS and the Chinese inability to adhere to the UNCLOS, which China signed on to.

Have you anything relevant to the topic?



You mean the ones who died in the Korean War when the Communist north invaded the free south?

Or, are you talking about the millions of dead North Koreans who have starved to death or been tortured to death by the commies there, while China props up the little dictators in North Korea?



There it is. The truth. Thanks. Noted.



Why?

How has the US power and protection of the Western Pacific been a bad thing? All other nations in the region want the US to stay and are worried about Chinese schemes for power in the region.

Are you just another rabid Chinese nationalist?
LOL, that's why I go around saying that China committed atrocities because I am a rabid nationalist right? I don't care what happens in Asia really the only thing I care about is that US leaves that wretched region and focus on home. Whether Japan or China is in charge of Asia is none of my concern. Of course, America helped bring Communist China to power by putting that oil embargo on Japan on matters that did not concern America (why is it wrong that Japan took Vietnam from France? and why is Nanking such a big deal to Americans when the people who were killed were non whites?). Whatever it is, America has gone to war with just about every Asian country that has a coastline (Philippines, Cambodia, China, Korea, Japan) and I want that to stop really.

Last edited by X14Freak; 04-20-2016 at 08:53 PM..
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Old 04-21-2016, 03:07 AM
 
4,682 posts, read 3,610,867 times
Reputation: 7381
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salmonburgher View Post
You demonstrate your ignorance and blind Chinese nationalism, again.

My American attitude desires freedom for all, including the Chinese, but, also for the peoples of the other nations in the region.

Desiring FON for all is hardly a dangerous attitude.

Maybe you need to rethink this, objectively.

I've showed you why you are so very wrong regarding the UNCLOS and the incident where the Chinese hotdog pilot, "Wrong Way", rammed the innocent US plane. Why don't you consider my remarks instead of dismissing them out of hand as jingoistic?

When someone shows you where you are wrong, you should stop and reconsider your position.

Otherwise, you appear to have learned nothing.
How many time do I have to tell you that I am not Chinese! No Chinese nationalism here, just telling it like it is. I do read Chinese and have studied Chinese in grad school.
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Old 04-21-2016, 03:16 AM
 
4,682 posts, read 3,610,867 times
Reputation: 7381
Quote:
Originally Posted by X14Freak View Post
LOL, that's why I go around saying that China committed atrocities because I am a rabid nationalist right? I don't care what happens in Asia really the only thing I care about is that US leaves that wretched region and focus on home. Whether Japan or China is in charge of Asia is none of my concern. Of course, America helped bring Communist China to power by putting that oil embargo on Japan on matters that did not concern America (why is it wrong that Japan took Vietnam from France? and why is Nanking such a big deal to Americans when the people who were killed were non whites?). Whatever it is, America has gone to war with just about every Asian country that has a coastline (Philippines, Cambodia, China, Korea, Japan) and I want that to stop really.
The US isn't out to save any Asian in any shape or form for an altruistic reasons. It is out to balance the power in Asia to maintain its own supremacy in the world. When a powerful Asian country, be it imperial japan, or today's China rises, the US uses any available excuse to aid its enemies to weaken and defeat it, and in the process, making/keeping itself relevant in its role as the kingmaker and the sole arbiter of power.

This was true when Imperial Japan was at the top, and it was true when the USSR was powerful. Now of course, with China's rise, the US is doing everything it can to stir the pot against it to remain in Asia and strengthen its hand against China through encirclement.

The US helped China earlier because it was weak and useful against the USSR (and before that it was weak against japan). Then, China became a darling of US businesses for its cheap labor. Now, the Chinese surprised the US with how fast it was able to grow and transform itself into an industrial power, and the US is just now realizing that China needs containment in a serious way. So it stirs up the pot in the SCS and pulls all those little tinpot countries together in an attempt to weaken and isolate China. It's an old pattern that anyone can see.

Britain used this balancing strategy to maintain its power for more than 200 years against Mainland Europe. The US, as the successor of Britain's status as a superpower, has gone on to perfect this art of balancing. The US does what it does to serve its national interest. There is nothing right or wrong with that, just the fact. And China is doing the same to further its national interests. Anyone who thinks the US is out to save the world is naive. Maybe some in the US have those grand visions, but in the American corridors of power, it's all about maintaining US hegemony. Of course, we have nice sounding terms, like FON and Democracy and Flower Revolutions, to make raw US national interests sound appealing to the American voters and taxpayers.
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Old 04-21-2016, 09:15 AM
 
Location: Asia
2,761 posts, read 1,101,492 times
Reputation: 2989
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post

Britain used this balancing strategy to maintain its power for more than 200 years against Mainland Europe. The US, as the successor of Britain's status as a superpower, has gone on to perfect this art of balancing. The US does what it does to serve its national interest. There is nothing right or wrong with that, just the fact. And China is doing the same to further its national interests. Anyone who thinks the US is out to save the world is naive. Maybe some in the US have those grand visions, but in the American corridors of power, it's all about maintaining US hegemony. Of course, we have nice sounding terms, like FON and Democracy and Flower Revolutions, to make raw US national interests sound appealing to the American voters and taxpayers.
Your grasp of history is woefully weak.

Let me just give you a quick clue.

The US, from its very beginning, has always been isolationist. Our founding fathers warned us about dangerous entanglements outside of our borders, and until WWI, we were quite happy to let the rest of the world wallow in its belligerent stupidity.

But, the Democrats have always had grand visions for the US and the world, and Wilson put us into WWI. The After WWI, the US had become a world power. Not the strongest, perhaps. But, a power to be reckoned with.

Nonetheless, the American people happily reverted to the default, which was isolationism. That lasted again until WWII, when another Democrat, FDR, put us in WWII. The American people wanted nothing to do with another European war, and could not have cared less about the insanity in Asia. But, once the Japanese bombed Pearl, there was no turning the other cheek.

So, the US again reluctantly joined in another World War. That war destroyed most nations, and by default, the US ended up the strongest power. But, the US did not set out to become a superpower.

After WWII, the Cold War started, and realpolitik necessitated the US do certain things and adopt certain policies. Most Americans wanted to return to isolationism, once again. But, the devastation of two World Wars and the rise of communism and the barbaric insanity that it unleashed and threatened the free world with convinced enough Americans that it would be prudent, even if not ideal, to maintain our new-found position as a superpower. The US also used its power to try to promote freedom around the world. Yes, mistakes were made and horrible choices had to be made, or at least many in power believed there was no other alternative.

It is ignorantly cynical to believe that the US has acted purely in its own self interest. On the balance, while the US has failed often, even to live up to its own proclaimed ideals, the rise of the US as a superpower has benefitted far more around the world than it has maligned. And while the US was making the mistakes that you so cynically criticise, the communist world was killing more people than were lost in both of the world wars! The Chinese communists turned China inside out and upside down. They starved their own people to death, beat them to death, worked them to death. They freaking ate the flesh and organs of their own people. The KR in Cambodia emptied the cities and killed a third of the population. Nobody was safe from the insanity. Pol Pot declared it to be the Year 0, and if you wore glasses, you would likely be killed as an intellectual, enemy of the people. The Vietnamese communists may have started out simply as nationalists, but, when they united the north and south, they went on a killing spree to rival, at least in proportion if not actual numbers, their commie pals in China and the USSR.

But, let's just focus on the mistakes made by the US.

After the Soviet Union fell, the US found itself again, by default rather than by design, the top power.

Now, and this is very important, IMO... Let's contrast the US extreme reluctance to get involved and to become a world power with the very different designs and desires of China.

China actually aches to become a superpower. China is not reluctant to become a superpower. China dreams and schemes of getting back on top, of becoming once again, the Centre of the world and of nations. You can see it in Chinese media. You can hear that desire when the Chinese people speak. You can read the desire, the yearning, the aching to be the top dog in statements made by so many Chinese posters on fora such as this.

I don't know about you. But, I don't trust anyone who wants power for the sake of being the strongest. I don't know for sure what China will do if it becomes powerful enough, militarily, to challenge the US. But, I know what China was like when it was a top power. I know what China is like to any nation it is able to bully, currently. And if you think I'm posting BS, then ask yourself why all of the nations in the region fear a strong and assertive China. Don't take my word. Take theirs. They know China better than you. Better than me.

China does not inspire confidence that it will be a benevolent power.

But, you go on and continue thinking, ignorant as some college sophomore who just learned from her leftist professor that the US alone is the greatest evil on the planet.

Just be careful what you wish for.
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Old 04-21-2016, 10:11 AM
 
1,378 posts, read 1,813,638 times
Reputation: 980
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salmonburgher View Post
Your grasp of history is woefully weak.

Let me just give you a quick clue.

The US, from its very beginning, has always been isolationist. Our founding fathers warned us about dangerous entanglements outside of our borders, and until WWI, we were quite happy to let the rest of the world wallow in its belligerent stupidity.

But, the Democrats have always had grand visions for the US and the world, and Wilson put us into WWI. The After WWI, the US had become a world power. Not the strongest, perhaps. But, a power to be reckoned with.

Nonetheless, the American people happily reverted to the default, which was isolationism. That lasted again until WWII, when another Democrat, FDR, put us in WWII. The American people wanted nothing to do with another European war, and could not have cared less about the insanity in Asia. But, once the Japanese bombed Pearl, there was no turning the other cheek.

So, the US again reluctantly joined in another World War. That war destroyed most nations, and by default, the US ended up the strongest power. But, the US did not set out to become a superpower.

After WWII, the Cold War started, and realpolitik necessitated the US do certain things and adopt certain policies. Most Americans wanted to return to isolationism, once again. But, the devastation of two World Wars and the rise of communism and the barbaric insanity that it unleashed and threatened the free world with convinced enough Americans that it would be prudent, even if not ideal, to maintain our new-found position as a superpower. The US also used its power to try to promote freedom around the world. Yes, mistakes were made and horrible choices had to be made, or at least many in power believed there was no other alternative.

It is ignorantly cynical to believe that the US has acted purely in its own self interest. On the balance, while the US has failed often, even to live up to its own proclaimed ideals, the rise of the US as a superpower has benefitted far more around the world than it has maligned. And while the US was making the mistakes that you so cynically criticise, the communist world was killing more people than were lost in both of the world wars! The Chinese communists turned China inside out and upside down. They starved their own people to death, beat them to death, worked them to death. They freaking ate the flesh and organs of their own people. The KR in Cambodia emptied the cities and killed a third of the population. Nobody was safe from the insanity. Pol Pot declared it to be the Year 0, and if you wore glasses, you would likely be killed as an intellectual, enemy of the people. The Vietnamese communists may have started out simply as nationalists, but, when they united the north and south, they went on a killing spree to rival, at least in proportion if not actual numbers, their commie pals in China and the USSR.

But, let's just focus on the mistakes made by the US.

After the Soviet Union fell, the US found itself again, by default rather than by design, the top power.

Now, and this is very important, IMO... Let's contrast the US extreme reluctance to get involved and to become a world power with the very different designs and desires of China.

China actually aches to become a superpower. China is not reluctant to become a superpower. China dreams and schemes of getting back on top, of becoming once again, the Centre of the world and of nations. You can see it in Chinese media. You can hear that desire when the Chinese people speak. You can read the desire, the yearning, the aching to be the top dog in statements made by so many Chinese posters on fora such as this.

I don't know about you. But, I don't trust anyone who wants power for the sake of being the strongest. I don't know for sure what China will do if it becomes powerful enough, militarily, to challenge the US. But, I know what China was like when it was a top power. I know what China is like to any nation it is able to bully, currently. And if you think I'm posting BS, then ask yourself why all of the nations in the region fear a strong and assertive China. Don't take my word. Take theirs. They know China better than you. Better than me.

China does not inspire confidence that it will be a benevolent power.

But, you go on and continue thinking, ignorant as some college sophomore who just learned from her leftist professor that the US alone is the greatest evil on the planet.

Just be careful what you wish for.
I don't think anyone is under the illusion that China will be a benevolent power. That said, I don't know why people delude themselves into believing any great power can be benevolent because the US is certainly not a benevolent power. All great powers are there to advance their own interests (the US included). Instead of reading neoconservative tracts from garbage writers like Bill Kristol and Max Boot, I suggest you read more Huntington, Mearsheimer, Walt, and Waltz. There has never been a great power that has become a great power without committing all kinds of atrocities (the United States included) or screwing other people over since that is the nature of the beast. All weaker neighbors of a great power fear the neighboring great power which is why everyone in Asia fears China. France for example had to deal with containment by Austria and the UK while later on Germany had to deal with containment by Russia/Soviet Union and France.

America's Asian allies prefer America to China because America bribes better than China and because it is 5,000 miles away. The political establishment in the US is willing to sell out its citizens by transferring technology to its Asian allies, agreeing to one sided trade agreements, and letting in millions of Asian immigrants participate in its labor market. China obviously isn't willing to do any of this which is why few if any Asian countries are willing to ally with China. China doesn't even have a formal alliance with Pakistan or North Korea for example because they aren't willing to make any kind of concession which is crucial to forming an alliance. You might think this is worth it but fewer people think it is which is why Trump is winning primary after primary. The neoconservative platitudes about the attractiveness of American values are nice but do you see any Asian country actually adopting American values rather than the superficial stuff you see?

I don't think China will ever be a superpower, since they aren't willing to make the sort of concessions that the Soviets and Americans made, and few except for the most delusional analysts actually believe that China will be a superpower. That said, I do think China will carve a sphere of influence over Southeast Asia and maybe Northeast Asia (with the Koreas - I don't think Japan will ever fall under the Chinese sphere). Southeast Asia under Chinese hegemony will probably be similar to South America under American hegemony, that is the Chinese will set up awful trade deals and occasionally launch coups against any government that threatens Chinese business interests. Is this awful? Yes, but not any different from the way any other great power behaved. Of course, the big loser in all of this is the US since its trade interests will diminish in the face of Chinese hegemony which is the main reason why the US is so opposed to China. That's also perfectly fine but let's not pretend that the US is worried for any other reason other than that China threatens its power in Asia. That's also the reason why I wrote those provocative posts since your previous posts are full of nauseating neoconservative platitudes.
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