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Old 04-13-2016, 03:00 AM
 
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backward peasant mentality is so behind the times, just like insisting on eating dogs and cats and believing in TCM voodoo magic.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/14/wo...ge-ruling.html

I am surprised that an officer visited the couple who filed the lawsuit in China. The officer stated that it was the responsibility of a married couple to have children.....LOL!

So, I guess people who can't have kids should not be able to get married in China. Nor should old people etc. It's as if the Chinese need even more people in their overcrowded country. And what about all those abandoned girls in China? I guess they would rather these girls languish in poorly run and dirty orphanages with a few lucky ones adopted by foreigners (at a huge price) than to allow Chinese gay couples to adopt them. Such shortsighted and unevolved attitude in China, and it doesn't even have the BS judeo-Christian baggage to deal with! It's all because of that Confucian bovine manure about having kids to pass the family name that is once again stifling Chinese progress. Join the 21st century.

 
Old 04-13-2016, 09:17 AM
 
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For China, I consider it a big progress, I mean the lawsuit itself. I think there will be more and more lawsuits like this in the future and people will be encourage to fight for such rights.


You don't get progress over night. In each and every country, gay rights was fought for many years, and China is no exception. Unlike in many religious countries, the opposition of gay marriage in China is not motivated by hatred, so I am rather optimistic about it. Plus, it is not like gay marriage in allowed in Korea or Singapore.
 
Old 04-13-2016, 10:14 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
For China, I consider it a big progress, I mean the lawsuit itself. I think there will be more and more lawsuits like this in the future and people will be encourage to fight for such rights.


You don't get progress over night. In each and every country, gay rights was fought for many years, and China is no exception. Unlike in many religious countries, the opposition of gay marriage in China is not motivated by hatred, so I am rather optimistic about it. Plus, it is not like gay marriage in allowed in Korea or Singapore.
You shouldn't compare China to other Asian countries, though it might make sense. China is suppose to be an atheistic communist state driven by rationality and science. So it should aim higher than those tradition driven countries like Korea and Singapore. Korea specifically is a heavily sexist and traditional society where women are still second class and men are suppose to be "macho" and obnoxious. So striving to be like Korea would be like moving backward socially. But all this Chinese Confucian bovine crap about having grandkids only add so much unnecessary and backward pressure on young Chinese people today. Those Chinese parents need to just stop and shut up. Gay people should have the right to marry in a supposedly enlightened dictatorship like China. Imagine what all the Chinese critics would say if China declared gay marriage legal suddenly? They will all have a heart attack.

I agree with you that the road to gay rights will be smoother in China, especially as people follow these two guys' examples. They should inundate the Chinese courts with lawsuits until the authorities get sick of it and just give in. There is absolutely no reason why China should be against this. Marriage of any kind brings stability and order to those involved, and social stability is exactly what the Chinese government wants in this time of tremendous change and transition for China. It also brings happiness to those involved, and give China a positive reputation in the world. There is absolutely nothing negative about gay marriage for China because the Chinese are not saddle with the ignorant bible thumper crowd like we have here in the US.
 
Old 04-13-2016, 11:23 AM
 
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I think gay rights are simply not one of the government's priorities but as I said because of the absence of deep religious bias and stupidity, I am more optimistic. I used to predict gay marriage would be legalized earlier in China than in the US, guess I was wrong, however, my prediction was based on each or at least majority of gay marriage legalized in the US followed by federal legislation, not a handful of judges telling what's right or wrong, which is not the usual legislative process so I was not entirely wrong. The gay scene as far as I know is quite vibrant in many large cities, just like in the US.


I am not sure how familiar you are about China, but homosexuality is becoming more and more tolerated and accepted in the past 10 years, at least in urban areas. While I was in college, nobody ever seemed to talk about it, many completely ignorant of it, now gay couples are comfortably walking on the streets in Shanghai or Chengdu, and most people won't blink an eye. Things progressed faster than I would expect.


The government doesn't seem to have a strong reason to block gay marriages, and if legalized it will give the CCP some positive light. Unless the gay community does something stupid such as to form some nation wide political organization or worse to somehow work with the US government, something the CCP will never tolerate, it is a matter of time gay marriage or at least civil unions will be acknowledged.
 
Old 04-13-2016, 02:21 PM
 
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Marriage per se is a traditional concept, based on some traditional values.
If gay people want to be revolutionary, why do they bother to have marriage?
 
Old 04-13-2016, 05:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yueng-ling View Post
Marriage per se is a traditional concept, based on some traditional values.
If gay people want to be revolutionary, why do they bother to have marriage?
To validate their relationships, which is a pretty basic human aspiration. Marriage is not only for the purpose of having children, so its meaning and definition can be expanded to include same sex relationships. If you don't want gays to use the word marriage for their union, then abolish the word marriage altogether and make all marriages become just civil unions. That would be most fair for everyone.
 
Old 04-13-2016, 07:15 PM
 
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What are attitudes towards adoption/surrogacy like in China? Just out of curiosity. Kind of a related subject. The family name and legacy doesn't necessarily have to die out because a son is gay or a daughter is lesbian.

I would guess that it'll be a long wait before non-traditional lifestyles become more accepted in Chinese culture. I recently read an article about young women in their late 20s who were single, and felt extreme guilt, over their feeling that they'd let their families down because they weren't yet married with families. If the cultural pressure is that strong, change is going to come slowly.
 
Old 04-13-2016, 07:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
To validate their relationships, which is a pretty basic human aspiration. Marriage is not only for the purpose of having children, so its meaning and definition can be expanded to include same sex relationships. If you don't want gays to use the word marriage for their union, then abolish the word marriage altogether and make all marriages become just civil unions. That would be most fair for everyone.
What is fair?
An important function of marriage is/was to protect children and women.
Nowadays things changed and the society has more resources for all people, but I don't see two men or even two women need marriage, although I understand everyone wants something they don't really need.
 
Old 04-14-2016, 03:00 AM
 
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Well, I dont know what it's like in China, but in the US, being a married couple entitles the two folks lots of benefits, from filing federal and state taxes jointly (and saving money) to mutual possession of real estate and properties, to medical decisionmaking for each other. To be married carries a lot of tangible and intangible benefits, financial and psychological. To be marries is also a validation from society of these two people's relationship and takes another step in the struggle for full acceptance. I know this because my cousin is gay and he explained to me how it is so important for him and his partner to be allowed to get married instead of just having a civil union certificate. I had previously thought the same as you do....who needs this if you wont have children....but it's more than that. Also, being married gives the couple another step toward being able to adopt a child, or have other ways to have a child like through surrogacy.

In the end, it's not up to us to decide what other people want. What is important is that we treat everyone with the same fairness and respect. We don't get to say to someone that they should be satisfied because we think something is "good enough" or "as good as" something else. We have to be fair.

What is fair? In a civil society, which many Chinese have no clue, being fair means that the law treats each and everyone the same way, regardless of religion or cultural norms. There will be no special rights, or special privileges except for those deemed as ways to help historically disadvantaged people get a leg up. These privileges, like affirmative action, are often controversial in American society.

So, if a married heterosexual couple can get tax benefits, then so should a homosexual couple. If the heterosexual couple can receive a civil marriage certificate, then so should a same sex couple.
 
Old 04-14-2016, 10:38 AM
 
1,424 posts, read 734,340 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
Well, I dont know what it's like in China, but in the US, being a married couple entitles the two folks lots of benefits, from filing federal and state taxes jointly (and saving money) to mutual possession of real estate and properties, to medical decisionmaking for each other. To be married carries a lot of tangible and intangible benefits, financial and psychological. To be marries is also a validation from society of these two people's relationship and takes another step in the struggle for full acceptance. I know this because my cousin is gay and he explained to me how it is so important for him and his partner to be allowed to get married instead of just having a civil union certificate. I had previously thought the same as you do....who needs this if you wont have children....but it's more than that. Also, being married gives the couple another step toward being able to adopt a child, or have other ways to have a child like through surrogacy.

In the end, it's not up to us to decide what other people want. What is important is that we treat everyone with the same fairness and respect. We don't get to say to someone that they should be satisfied because we think something is "good enough" or "as good as" something else. We have to be fair.

What is fair? In a civil society, which many Chinese have no clue, being fair means that the law treats each and everyone the same way, regardless of religion or cultural norms. There will be no special rights, or special privileges except for those deemed as ways to help historically disadvantaged people get a leg up. These privileges, like affirmative action, are often controversial in American society.

So, if a married heterosexual couple can get tax benefits, then so should a homosexual couple. If the heterosexual couple can receive a civil marriage certificate, then so should a same sex couple.
If the purpose of marriage is just economical gain, I do not think it is valid.

In my opinion, two men SHOULD pay more taxes than a man-woman couple too (on average). If they have children, that is another story.

And your arrogance shows up again. No need to comment on Chinese.
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