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View Poll Results: Foreigners in Hong Kong: Should they study Cantonese or Mandarin? Why?
Cantonese 17 58.62%
Mandarin 12 41.38%
Voters: 29. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-05-2017, 04:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
I agree. It is ok for people to hang out with their own people and the culture they are familiar with.

However, the difference in western countries, Asians (or others) are often criticized for doing so - sticking together, not speaking English, not actively "integrate" blah blah, while Asians rarely think it is a problem when Westerners do so in their countries, and that was my point.

As to 55% HKers speaking English, well, if you can understand the English they speak.
I do think some people have double standards, but I also think itís coming from two different perspectives. When a foreigner comes to the US for example, the assumption is they will eventually immigrate and become citizens so we as a people and our government asks those people to integrate and learn English. Many Asian countries have a different perspective, when they see westerners or other foreigners, they donít see immigrants and so the expectations will be different.

Also, those people who say immigrants donít actively ďintegrateĒ are wrong, all data and research shows that not to be true, at least here in the US where the research has been done. Sometimes one just has to ignore those who want to dismiss the facts. I doubt the same research has been done in China or Hong Kong, but as there is almost no way to live in China permanently, many foreigners and westerners arenít going to put in that much energy to integrate into a society that can never really be a part of.
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Old 12-05-2017, 06:43 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,258,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattks View Post
I do think some people have double standards, but I also think itís coming from two different perspectives. When a foreigner comes to the US for example, the assumption is they will eventually immigrate and become citizens so we as a people and our government asks those people to integrate and learn English. Many Asian countries have a different perspective, when they see westerners or other foreigners, they donít see immigrants and so the expectations will be different.

Also, those people who say immigrants donít actively ďintegrateĒ are wrong, all data and research shows that not to be true, at least here in the US where the research has been done. Sometimes one just has to ignore those who want to dismiss the facts. I doubt the same research has been done in China or Hong Kong, but as there is almost no way to live in China permanently, many foreigners and westerners arenít going to put in that much energy to integrate into a society that can never really be a part of.
It IS possible for foreigners to live in China on a permanent basis. A lot of them stay for more than a decade, but of course it is more rarer than Chinese living in America.

It is that most Americans eventually choose to go back, once their project is over or they find a better opportunity elsewhere. And I am sure very few of them decide to retire in China beyond a certain age. Most foreigners work in China for the money making opportunity, not because they love Chinese culture or they intend to make it their home, raise their children there.

But I agree because immigrants are much rarer in China and people in general are not used to diversity, they will see foreigners as "foreigners" - but that in itself doesn't mean the foreigners can't integrate. The problem is still they don't speak good enough China, which often makes communication difficult, then you can't blame the Chinese for considering you as a foreigner. A Chinese will have problem making American friends if he doesn't speak good English either. If an American keeps expecting the Chinese to speak English with him, then of course he will never be accepted as one of their own. It goes both ways.

English is not an "international" language. Even in the Netherlands where everyone speaks decent English, you still can't integrate without speaking Dutch. that is just how it is, and should be.

Not just language. A Chinese in America would actively watch American movies, TV shows, certain sports and activities that are popular in America, try a lot of western food so that they can have more common with American friends. An American or a Westerner on the other hand, seldom make such efforts. You don't see an American discussing what is hot on Chinese TV, do you?

In the end, people are just people and they are pretty much the same when it comes to making friends with other people. Asians definitely aren't used to racial diversity as you do in North America, but continous efforts will overcome that. And it is always mainly the foreigners' responsibility to try learning local culture and become part of it, instead of expecting the locals to accommodate you all the time.
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Old 12-05-2017, 07:28 AM
 
Location: Macao
15,945 posts, read 36,154,437 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
It is that most Americans eventually choose to go back, once their project is over or they find a better opportunity elsewhere. And I am sure very few of them decide to retire in China beyond a certain age. Most foreigners work in China for the money making opportunity, not because they love Chinese culture or they intend to make it their home, raise their children there.
Your interpretation is an interesting one. But the reality is they CANNOT stay. Again, there are ONLY laws in China against foreigners emigrating or making it home. They leave after projects or work contracts, because they lose their right to stay in China.

Few retire in China, because China doesn't make that easy to do. The ones I know who do that, try to do so on a tourist visa, leaving every few months. There is nothing in place for a foreigner to settle down in China, few retirees want to deal with unstable realities with few securities - i.e. no right to stay (in China).
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Old 12-05-2017, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Taipei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer View Post
Few retire in China, because China doesn't make that easy to do. The ones I know who do that, try to do so on a tourist visa, leaving every few months. There is nothing in place for a foreigner to settle down in China, few retirees want to deal with unstable realities with few securities - i.e. no right to stay (in China).
Or they simply don't want to stay.

Let's just be real here. Asia in general is a terrible place to live, for everybody. There are some Westerners retiring in really cheap islands in the Philippines or Thailand, and there are some Westerners who find China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan etc. enjoyable and prefer them over their home countries, but they are the absolute minority. Ultimately, Asians migrate to the West for the sake of a better life for themselves or their family, in other words, we move to settle down; Westerners choose Asia maybe for their career advancement, adventure, fun, or cheaper healthcare. The intentions are completely different in the first place, so of course Westerners don't intergrate. The ones that really want to are way too few on numbers to really make a difference.
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Old 12-05-2017, 12:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
It IS possible for foreigners to live in China on a permanent basis. A lot of them stay for more than a decade, but of course it is more rarer than Chinese living in America.

It is that most Americans eventually choose to go back, once their project is over or they find a better opportunity elsewhere. And I am sure very few of them decide to retire in China beyond a certain age. Most foreigners work in China for the money making opportunity, not because they love Chinese culture or they intend to make it their home, raise their children there.

But I agree because immigrants are much rarer in China and people in general are not used to diversity, they will see foreigners as "foreigners" - but that in itself doesn't mean the foreigners can't integrate. The problem is still they don't speak good enough China, which often makes communication difficult, then you can't blame the Chinese for considering you as a foreigner. A Chinese will have problem making American friends if he doesn't speak good English either. If an American keeps expecting the Chinese to speak English with him, then of course he will never be accepted as one of their own. It goes both ways.

English is not an "international" language. Even in the Netherlands where everyone speaks decent English, you still can't integrate without speaking Dutch. that is just how it is, and should be.

Not just language. A Chinese in America would actively watch American movies, TV shows, certain sports and activities that are popular in America, try a lot of western food so that they can have more common with American friends. An American or a Westerner on the other hand, seldom make such efforts. You don't see an American discussing what is hot on Chinese TV, do you?

In the end, people are just people and they are pretty much the same when it comes to making friends with other people. Asians definitely aren't used to racial diversity as you do in North America, but continous efforts will overcome that. And it is always mainly the foreigners' responsibility to try learning local culture and become part of it, instead of expecting the locals to accommodate you all the time.
No there isnít. The only visa available after the age 60 is a tourist visa in China, if your spouse is Chinese nationality one can get a 2 year spousal visa that doesnít allow work or school. In the last decade or so China has only issued a few thousand permanent residency visas and even less have gained citizenship. The only visa options are tourism, work, and spousal. There is no legal way to get government benefits or have an income for foreigners after the age of 60. Tourist, work, and spousal visas require one to leave the country when it renews or expires. The maximum amount of time a foreigner can stay in China is 2 years, even if you just leave the country for a day or go to Hong Kong counts as leaving. Itís an absolutely ridiculous system.
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Old 12-05-2017, 01:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
Or they simply don't want to stay.

Let's just be real here. Asia in general is a terrible place to live, for everybody. There are some Westerners retiring in really cheap islands in the Philippines or Thailand, and there are some Westerners who find China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan etc. enjoyable and prefer them over their home countries, but they are the absolute minority. Ultimately, Asians migrate to the West for the sake of a better life for themselves or their family, in other words, we move to settle down; Westerners choose Asia maybe for their career advancement, adventure, fun, or cheaper healthcare. The intentions are completely different in the first place, so of course Westerners don't intergrate. The ones that really want to are way too few on numbers to really make a difference.
But foreigners are not just westerners.
Many people in Asia, Africa etc. would love to stay in China, if the policy allows it. Actually illegal immigrants from Africa and certain Asian countries have already been a social problem in China. Since China requires its citizens to have birth control, I think it is only fair to restrict immigration.
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Old 12-05-2017, 03:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
But foreigners are not just westerners.
Many people in Asia, Africa etc. would love to stay in China, if the policy allows it. Actually illegal immigrants from Africa and certain Asian countries have already been a social problem in China. Since China requires its citizens to have birth control, I think it is only fair to restrict immigration.
There is nothing wrong with restricting immigration, but China basically bars all legal immigration.
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Old 12-05-2017, 05:42 PM
 
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A foreigner can become a China citizen? I don't think this is true. I've heard very few foreigners here in China receiving that new Green Card, but I think its illegal for a foreigner to become a citizen. In all my years, I've never seen a foreigner with a China passport.


Yeah, I've lived in China for 16 years now. I'll never become integrated into society in China no matter how well I can speak Mandarin, no matter how well I know the country, its history and culture. I'm always a laowai, even if my wife and kid are Chinese. Besides the laziness of many foreigners in China, perhaps that's also the reason many don't even try to integrate. There is so much against them from the beginning. I can't tell you how many times locals have discriminated against me and my Chinese looking daughter when we go out for walks. The comments I hear from people are amazingly ignorant.


At least in the U.S. you have an opportunity and a system that welcomes you if you do it legally, even though its not an easy process I'm sure. A Chinese immigrant to the U.S. can become American. A U.S. person living for decades in China can never become Chinese.
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Old 12-05-2017, 05:44 PM
 
Location: Honolulu
1,356 posts, read 546,239 times
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It is very easy for foreign expatriates to live permanently in Hong Kong. After working in the City for consecutive seven years, he/she can easily obtain permanent residency.

But what turns them off is the high cost of living especially housing. And if they have a family, the cost of enrolling their kids in international school is prohibitively high. But many expatriates' housewives, particularly those from Japan/Korea, really don't like returning home because there will be no Filipino/Indonesian nannies helping them do house chores.
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Old 12-05-2017, 06:55 PM
 
Location: Honolulu
1,356 posts, read 546,239 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeinChina View Post
A foreigner can become a China citizen? I don't think this is true. I've heard very few foreigners here in China receiving that new Green Card, but I think its illegal for a foreigner to become a citizen. In all my years, I've never seen a foreigner with a China passport.


Yeah, I've lived in China for 16 years now. I'll never become integrated into society in China no matter how well I can speak Mandarin, no matter how well I know the country, its history and culture. I'm always a laowai, even if my wife and kid are Chinese. Besides the laziness of many foreigners in China, perhaps that's also the reason many don't even try to integrate. There is so much against them from the beginning. I can't tell you how many times locals have discriminated against me and my Chinese looking daughter when we go out for walks. The comments I hear from people are amazingly ignorant.


At least in the U.S. you have an opportunity and a system that welcomes you if you do it legally, even though its not an easy process I'm sure. A Chinese immigrant to the U.S. can become American. A U.S. person living for decades in China can never become Chinese.
There are quite a few foreigners in HK that have become naturalized Chinese citizens, i.e. Michael Rowse,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Rowse

After becoming a naturalized Chinese citizen, he then applied for a "Home Return Permit" (which most HKers have one) and went in and out for China many times. Theoretically one can live in China indefinitely on a Home Return Permit.

He can also visit Tibet without requirement of another permit.
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