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Old 05-25-2016, 10:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenTiger View Post
The British Empire was one of the largest in world history. If Japan was trying to emulate the UK, then its invasion of Manchuria was similar to UK's colonization of India. After UK lost Calais, it still had numerous colonies: India, Malaysia/Singapore, Hong Kong, Gibraltar, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, etc. Having India and Canada, it can be argued that the UK was not purely a "sea power" only. With Gibraltar, it can be argued that the UK did not exactly lost all interest in having territories in continental Europe.
It would have been difficult to conquer any land in continental Europe as some were as powerful as the Brits in warfare. The British focused on vast uninhabited lands with much lesser technologically advanced people. Continential Europe was full of relatively powerful opponents - Germans, Russians, French etc.


Japan was the first in Asia to fully Western technologies and were light years ahead of everyone else in Asia at the time, thus making the Asian continent ripe for picking. China was big but it was a useless and tired beast.
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Old 05-25-2016, 11:14 PM
 
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I recall a point I came across in a web site-Japan needs to include the Philippines in a Japanese sphere of influence. Japan-which needs to import nearly all of the raw materials for its industries-must dominate littoral east Asia. To control the sea lanes.

Which means that Japan must draw into its sphere the island nations of east Asia, such as Taiwan and the Philippines.
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Old 05-26-2016, 08:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davy-040 View Post
Japan had 15-18 million more people than the UK in 1930.
I meant economic size.
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Old 05-26-2016, 08:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willister View Post

Japan was the first in Asia to fully Western technologies and were light years ahead of everyone else in Asia at the time, thus making the Asian continent ripe for picking. China was big but it was a useless and tired beast.
China being weak and tired only meant China wouldn't pose a threat to Japan any more, it doesn't necessarily mean Japan could conquer China.

And one tends to exaggerate the difference between China and Japan back then. As strong as the Japanese army was, it simply couldn't win a war with China, only battles. Towards the second half of the war, the Japanese generals realized that it is a war impossible to win, but they were already stuck in China too deeply and unable to get out. This is why I said the UK had been far smarter.


And the consequence goes far beyond losing the war. There had never been a country that rose so fast and so splendidly yet declined as fast and abruptly.
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Old 05-26-2016, 11:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
This is one theory I learned from certain academia in present day China.


Japan's fatal mistake after its economic rise in the late 19th century was not engaging the war against its Asian neighbours, or that it bombed Pearl Harbour, or that it made too many enemies at the same.


Japan's mistake was it wanted to expand land territory in continental Asia at all. The day it invaded Manchuria and kept it to its own, it was doomed, because from that day one, it lost its advantage of being a pure sea power.


As an island country, Japan should really learn from the UK - the two countries share striking similarities in being big islands on both sides of the Eurasia continent - in balancing powers on the continent and seeking the dominate in ocean and exert its influence though trade. Nobody can really conquer Japan due to its unique geographical location, but the price is that it should never seek to be a continental power. It should instead be the United Kingdom of Asia. After the 100 year war, did the UK ever seek to expand territory in Europe? No. It learned its lesson and always worked with the second or third power against the number one. Japan should do the same.


In 1895, Japan obliterated China's naval force and basically dethroned China as the dominant power in Asia - that was quite some history and should be enough. However, this was when Japan lost itself and quickly expanded to Manchuria and the rest of China and Asia, which put itself into a rather awkward position. Owning Taiwan should be sufficient. The reality is even without involvement of the US during WWII, Japan's Asia strategy was doomed to fail from the beginning. It is not about its inability to conquer East Asia, but rather, the cost is too high to warrant such an ambition and there are far smarter ways to be powerful and obtain resources without incurring such costs. The united kingdom knew from the beginning what its advantage is, unfortunately Japan completely lost it.


Now Japan is a strange country, completely under the mercy of the US and largely hated by many of its neighbours (except Taiwan). It is wealthy but so what. It could enjoy the power and prestige the UK has now but it was not smart enough to make the right decision due to blind optimism and nationalism. And there is no way back because nobody in Asia truly trusts Japan.

In the 21 century, rapidly rising China seems to be learning the lesson. It's seeking more power in the sea - therefore all the conflicts in the SCS, yet its relationship with its neighbours are much improved, because it realizes that getting a bit more land is meaningless.

why dont u talk about what germany should have done to be succefully dominate the world?!? why only japan?!?
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Old 05-26-2016, 12:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by good3352 View Post
why dont u talk about what germany should have done to be succefully dominate the world?!? why only japan?!?
Because it is the Asia subforum.


For Germany, it could take Austria, central Europe, Belgium and the Netherlands and call it a day. Even taking France was a mistake. Just my personal view. Dominate the world? Hitler himself never aspired to dominate the world, no matter what a maniac we think he is. Of course today, it is totally fine to crap however we want on him irrespective of facts.
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Old 05-26-2016, 05:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Because it is the Asia subforum.


For Germany, it could take Austria, central Europe, Belgium and the Netherlands and call it a day. Even taking France was a mistake. Just my personal view. Dominate the world? Hitler himself never aspired to dominate the world, no matter what a maniac we think he is. Of course today, it is totally fine to crap however we want on him irrespective of facts.


what i meant is that I never seen anyone talking from the perspective of germany...
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Old 05-26-2016, 07:28 PM
 
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by good3352 View Post
why dont u talk about what germany should have done to be succefully dominate the world?!? why only japan?!?
Not invade Russia and push for unification of Germanic land rather than bomb them.
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Old 05-26-2016, 08:53 PM
 
277 posts, read 205,356 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
China being weak and tired only meant China wouldn't pose a threat to Japan any more, it doesn't necessarily mean Japan could conquer China.

And one tends to exaggerate the difference between China and Japan back then. As strong as the Japanese army was, it simply couldn't win a war with China, only battles. Towards the second half of the war, the Japanese generals realized that it is a war impossible to win, but they were already stuck in China too deeply and unable to get out. This is why I said the UK had been far smarter.


And the consequence goes far beyond losing the war. There had never been a country that rose so fast and so splendidly yet declined as fast and abruptly.
The Japanese were way too late in the colonial game to seriously conquer any land for long. The British colonies or former ones of the USA/Canada/Australia/NZ were all conquered well before Japan modernised with a sparse and backward native population.


What exactly can the Japanese conquer by the time they modernised in the late 1800s? Taiwan was sort of heavily populated by then (native Aboriginals and Han Chinese). Sakhalin island was pretty much the same thing with natives and Russians but also given how cold it is, it was probably a difficult assignment too but probably realistic to keep half the island.


As for the technology even back in the 20s - I think the Japanese already started making those Mitsubishi Zero planes amongst other military gear. China imported most military gear and some KMT soldiers were German trained, you cannot possibly defend importing foreign defence goods.
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Old 05-27-2016, 07:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by willister View Post
The Japanese were way too late in the colonial game to seriously conquer any land for long. The British colonies or former ones of the USA/Canada/Australia/NZ were all conquered well before Japan modernised with a sparse and backward native population.


What exactly can the Japanese conquer by the time they modernised in the late 1800s? Taiwan was sort of heavily populated by then (native Aboriginals and Han Chinese). Sakhalin island was pretty much the same thing with natives and Russians but also given how cold it is, it was probably a difficult assignment too but probably realistic to keep half the island.


As for the technology even back in the 20s - I think the Japanese already started making those Mitsubishi Zero planes amongst other military gear. China imported most military gear and some KMT soldiers were German trained, you cannot possibly defend importing foreign defence goods.
You missed my point.


Yes the Japanese was late to the game, but again, it shouldn't try to conquer China as its colony. Not even Manchuria. It doesn't have the power of the British empire even by a long shot, and two, invading a heavily populated neighbouring country with a long history and culture is not the same as conquering Canada or Australia, where there were nobody but some native tribes. Even India is far away and doesn't constitute any challenged to regional balance and upset any other powers. China is totally different.


I never disagree that Japan was technologically far more advanced than China. However that doesn't mean it automatically becomes feasible to conquer massive China, because the Chinese have a lot of ways to avoid head to head battles but resort to other ways to keep fighting. Japan was blindly optimistic in believe it could conquer China in 3 month. And then they quickly realize it is fantasy and that they were having big logistic problems. And as I mentioned, before the whole invasion, China was fragmented with various regional military powers in different provinces. After the invasion, the country largely united against a common enemy.


So in the end, to seek power through invading China was a huge mistake, and Japan is paying for that mistake even today. It could be a secondary power like the UK today, however, look at what it is now.
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