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Old 05-27-2016, 08:03 AM
 
Location: New Jersey
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Considering the UK could have been conquered by Germany if not for the U.S., the UK is not a great example for Japan to be following.
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Old 05-27-2016, 12:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
You watched that episode with that chubby guy who talked about everything. I saw it too. He has some valid points. Japan made a lot of stupid mistakes, just like China did during the same period. I liked his episode on Germany too.
Who is this chubby guy?
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Old 05-27-2016, 12:51 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
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The whole problem for Japan in the '30s was that the gumbatsu outgunned the zaibatsu. This made all important decisions military rather than economic. The near revolt of the 26th February Incident gave notice to the government that the militarists would act against any politicians that didn't act in accordance with the wishes of the Army and/or Navy.

If the zaibatsu had been in control they might have worked a deal with the US, "keep the peace in east Asia and we'll give you business." Imagine if part of the lend-lease shipments to Russia were manufactured in Japan? The US was paying our own industrialists to expand their physical plants and the "cost plus" system guaranteed profits for all but the most inept companies. If we had pumped some of that money into Japan they could have produced items and got them to the USSR without worrying about U-boats. The uptick in production would create more demand for raw materials in the rest of S.E.A. and increased the prosperity there as well. Some production might have been done closer to the source of the raw materials, especially in places like Manchuria.
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Old 05-27-2016, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antinimby View Post
Considering the UK could have been conquered by Germany if not for the U.S., the UK is not a great example for Japan to be following.
Are you saying UK's overseas colonies are the reason why they could not win WWII without the USA?
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Old 05-28-2016, 06:14 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,350,738 times
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Originally Posted by antinimby View Post
Considering the UK could have been conquered by Germany if not for the U.S., the UK is not a great example for Japan to be following.
You didn't get the point in this thread and your logic is wrong too.
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Old 05-28-2016, 06:19 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
The whole problem for Japan in the '30s was that the gumbatsu outgunned the zaibatsu. This made all important decisions military rather than economic. The near revolt of the 26th February Incident gave notice to the government that the militarists would act against any politicians that didn't act in accordance with the wishes of the Army and/or Navy.

If the zaibatsu had been in control they might have worked a deal with the US, "keep the peace in east Asia and we'll give you business." Imagine if part of the lend-lease shipments to Russia were manufactured in Japan? The US was paying our own industrialists to expand their physical plants and the "cost plus" system guaranteed profits for all but the most inept companies. If we had pumped some of that money into Japan they could have produced items and got them to the USSR without worrying about U-boats. The uptick in production would create more demand for raw materials in the rest of S.E.A. and increased the prosperity there as well. Some production might have been done closer to the source of the raw materials, especially in places like Manchuria.
Yes. Japan was completely out of control in the 1930. The government lost control of the army and it was the generals who decided what to do and if the politicians don't agree, they are out. So the war kept on because the army wanted, not because the country wanted.

1930s Japan was not a normal country.
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Old 05-28-2016, 06:29 AM
 
Location: St. Louis
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The Imperial Rule Assistance Association put the last nail in the coffin of democracy in Japan.
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Old 05-28-2016, 06:52 AM
 
Location: New Jersey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davy-040 View Post
Are you saying UK's overseas colonies are the reason why they could not win WWII without the USA?
I never said anything about overseas colonies. You are making stuff up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
You didn't get the point in this thread and your logic is wrong too.
Maybe I didn't but aren't you essentially saying Japan should have followed the UK's model of being a naval power instead of conquering continental neighbors? My point is that despite being a naval power, the UK still needed the U.S.'s help to keep from being conquered by Germany. That's not exactly a successful role model if you ask me.
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Old 05-30-2016, 12:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antinimby View Post

Maybe I didn't but aren't you essentially saying Japan should have followed the UK's model of being a naval power instead of conquering continental neighbors? My point is that despite being a naval power, the UK still needed the U.S.'s help to keep from being conquered by Germany. That's not exactly a successful role model if you ask me.
The UK is an exceedingly successful country, before and after the collapse of the British Empire. It always knows what's the best foreign policy for itself, and always able to be practical ignoring things like national pride or vanity. It is amazing a country of its moderate size can still exert so much influence on so many world issues.


WWII doesn't prove anything. Germany was too powerful back then, but that was a short lived triumph. You can't say because it was almost beaten by Germany, so it was a failure. The key point is how to make the best of the situation, not how always to win. If you look at the entire history, the UK has been 10 times more successful than Germany, or anything other European power, because it knows how to use its advantage and how to pick the battle. It is exactly the kind of wisdom Japan lacked.
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Old 05-30-2016, 06:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
The UK is an exceedingly successful country, before and after the collapse of the British Empire. It always knows what's the best foreign policy for itself, and always able to be practical ignoring things like national pride or vanity. It is amazing a country of its moderate size can still exert so much influence on so many world issues.


WWII doesn't prove anything. Germany was too powerful back then, but that was a short lived triumph. You can't say because it was almost beaten by Germany, so it was a failure. The key point is how to make the best of the situation, not how always to win. If you look at the entire history, the UK has been 10 times more successful than Germany, or anything other European power, because it knows how to use its advantage and how to pick the battle. It is exactly the kind of wisdom Japan lacked.
If Japan never invaded China then what should it do? There was a real threat of Red Russia invading it or becoming a US dog as it is now, only much sooner than our time line. Being an island, you are confined to an island unless you expand.


The UK is still successful today and basically runs the developed world simply because it moved its power base from the UK to the USA. Japan cannot exert any worldly influence because it never moved beyond Japan, same pretty much goes for China. Same goes for Germany.
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