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Old 07-13-2016, 09:13 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,253,275 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
^I guess he just wants a tribunal full of Chinese arbitrators.
You still think I am a Chinese nationalist so I am not surprised you make such a comment.


The thing is, there is no right or wrong in international relations, and even if there is, right rarely prevails. I have always expressed my opinion that China's claim to 90% of SCS is not justified, but that's exactly what it will continue to do, just like all the other big powers in the world.


What I question here is the legality and the impartiality of this tribunal. if the arbitrators are paid by one of the disputing parties, how the hell can you expect the process to work in a just way? Do you agree or not?


If this matter is really about justice or "international law", I can't help thinking why those didn't matter when big western powers are violating it? But when Russia or China do something, suddenly it becomes a huge scandal all over the news.
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Old 07-13-2016, 09:51 AM
 
3,339 posts, read 2,074,964 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
they need to demonstrate sufficient knowledge of Asian history
that's funny. your claim of "historical rights" over the spratlys only started in 1947 during the waning reign of the koumintang govt. before that, China didn't even know where the spratlys are and the Chinese consul in Manila have to consult American officials in Manila when France "annexed" them in the 1930s and once showed where they are, they were satisfied that the spratlys are not within Chinese territory.


go and see ancient maps even the ones made by Chinese, not those "manufactured ancient maps" by your Chinese propagandists. the southernmost territory of China is Hainan, not the spratlys, not the paracels
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Old 07-13-2016, 09:52 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,773 posts, read 5,116,323 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
What I question here is the legality and the impartiality of this tribunal. if the arbitrators are paid by one of the disputing parties, how the hell can you expect the process to work in a just way? Do you agree or not?


If this matter is really about justice or "international law", I can't help thinking why those didn't matter when big western powers are violating it? But when Russia or China do something, suddenly it becomes a huge scandal all over the news.
Usually in international arbitration, arbitrators are paid by both parties (or the losers would pay all in private disputes), and the parties would agree on the arbitrators beforehand, but since China was not willing to cooperate at all (basically because China knew that they were far more likely to lose), the Philippines could only submit the case to the organisation, and the organisation would pick or appoint the arbitrators, and in this case, these five arbitrators from Europe and Africa were picked. To think that the Philippines would have any influence on the outcome is basically just sore losers being sore losers. Actually the presiding arbitrator was initially a Sri Lankan, but since his wife is Filipina, he left voluntarily to avoid partiality.

And speaking of international law, China itself agreed to signed and ratified the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, which means that China recognised the legitimacy of such dispute resolution. If you don't accept such mechanism you should never have acceded to the system in the first place. Now China is very likely to withdraw from the Convention as there will be more cases to come, like with Japan and Malaysia etc.


The fact that no other country ever argued against the outcome of the arbitration tribunal based on the nationality of arbitrators speaks volumes. It's pretty desperate and quite frankly pathetic.
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Old 07-13-2016, 09:59 AM
 
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Before WWII, the Far East had only three fully independent countries: China, Japan and Thailand.
The current territories were mostly decided by western powers anyway, which China often rejects.
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Old 07-13-2016, 10:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yueng-ling View Post
Before WWII, the Far East had only three fully independent countries: China, Japan and Thailand.
The current territories were mostly decided by western powers anyway, which China often rejects.
doesn't matter. claiming the high seas as territory is just ludicrous
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Old 07-13-2016, 10:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by payutenyodagimas View Post
that's funny. your claim of "historical rights" over the spratlys only started in 1947 during the waning reign of the koumintang govt. before that, China didn't even know where the spratlys are and the Chinese consul in Manila have to consult American officials in Manila when France "annexed" them in the 1930s and once showed where they are, they were satisfied that the spratlys are not within Chinese territory.


go and see ancient maps even the ones made by Chinese, not those "manufactured ancient maps" by your Chinese propagandists. the southernmost territory of China is Hainan, not the spratlys, not the paracels
You mistake me for someone else. I never made such claims.
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Old 07-13-2016, 10:21 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,253,275 times
Reputation: 7578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
Usually in international arbitration, arbitrators are paid by both parties (or the losers would pay all in private disputes), and the parties would agree on the arbitrators beforehand, but since China was not willing to cooperate at all (basically because China knew that they were far more likely to lose), the Philippines could only submit the case to the organisation, and the organisation would pick or appoint the arbitrators, and in this case, these five arbitrators from Europe and Africa were picked. To think that the Philippines would have any influence on the outcome is basically just sore losers being sore losers. Actually the presiding arbitrator was initially a Sri Lankan, but since his wife is Filipina, he left voluntarily to avoid partiality.

And speaking of international law, China itself agreed to signed and ratified the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, which means that China recognised the legitimacy of such dispute resolution. If you don't accept such mechanism you should never have acceded to the system in the first place. Now China is very likely to withdraw from the Convention as there will be more cases to come, like with Japan and Malaysia etc.


The fact that no other country ever argued against the outcome of the arbitration tribunal based on the nationality of arbitrators speaks volumes. It's pretty desperate and quite frankly pathetic.
Except the organization has nothing to do with the UN. So it is not obligated to recognize this "arbitration", is it?

I never defended that China should claim all these island and don't know why you keep suggesting that. Sour loser? You talk as if I care about the result or it hurts me in some way.

Fact is, China doesn't really need to abide by so called international law, as most big powers don't. Tell me, who will try to enforce such laws, those nations who violate them repeatedly themselves? Here goes some laugh.
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Old 07-13-2016, 10:26 AM
 
3,339 posts, read 2,074,964 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Except the organization has nothing to do with the UN.

I never defended that China should claim all these island and don't know why you keep suggesting that. Sour loser? You talk as if I care about the result or it hurts me in some way.

Fact is, China doesn't really need to abide by so called international law, as most big powers don't. Tell me, who will try to enforce such laws, those nations who violate them repeatedly themselves? Here goes some laugh.
The Philippines may not be able to enforce it but those who ply the SCS will and they have powerful navies. the ruling is not only for the Philippines but for the use of open sea lanes by anobody
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Old 07-13-2016, 11:16 AM
 
1,378 posts, read 1,813,270 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by payutenyodagimas View Post
doesn't matter. claiming the high seas as territory is just ludicrous
It is ludicrous but anything that can weaken the influence of a foreign power with the pretense of being the so called leader of Asia (despite having almost no territory and a minuscule population in Asia) is awesome.
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Old 07-13-2016, 11:39 AM
 
3,339 posts, read 2,074,964 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X14Freak View Post
It is ludicrous but anything that can weaken the influence of a foreign power with the pretense of being the so called leader of Asia (despite having almost no territory and a minuscule population in Asia) is awesome.
actually you have more respect and influence from your neighbors if you don't bully them and deny them their rights. the Philippines was trying to cut their military ties with the US and they did by not renewing the treaty in 1992 but what did China do? seize mischief reef once the Americans were gone.


if you can reign in the north Koreans, maybe the south Koreans will also ask the americans to leave. and isn't that what the Chinese want? now everybody wants insurance against china. there would not be that pivot to asia if China Is not scaring their neighbors
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