U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Asia
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-30-2017, 07:54 AM
 
3,123 posts, read 2,700,820 times
Reputation: 1713

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattks View Post
Not all western countries are the same or equal when it comes to police or the legal system, but most are far better then what you will find in Asia, or most parts of the world.
Well, of course. But I expect western countries to have better legal system than poor countries like Laos. However, I prefer developed asian countries legal system over european legal system.

Because serious crime crime is taken much more seriously, the cases don't get dropped for ridiculous reasons and the punishments are more appropriate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattks View Post
The crime rate statistics for most Asian countries are complete bs, serious crimes like murder and rape are low in places like China, but theft is incredibly prevalent. Not just pickpocketing, but motorcycle and car theft are very common. The police simply don't report them. Also police will not normally get involved in domestic disputes, even if one person has gotten beaten.
How is that different from many western countries? Police in my home city had an informal policy to not investigate theft worth less than $10,000, and I heard many other cities have similar policies. You only report your stolen bike, so that you can get the insurance to cover it.

Last edited by Camlon; 03-30-2017 at 08:13 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-30-2017, 08:30 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,773 posts, read 5,116,323 times
Reputation: 4555
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
Well, of course. But I expect western countries to have better legal system than poor countries like Laos. However, I prefer developed asian countries legal system over european legal system.

Because serious crime crime is taken much more seriously, the cases don't get dropped for ridiculous reasons and the punishments are more appropriate.
Which are the developed Asian legal systems? The only advanced legal system in Asia is Hong Kong's, the rest all have incredibly backwards sides to them. There's a reason why German system is heavily adopted in Asia because it's the model system.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-30-2017, 08:32 AM
 
3,123 posts, read 2,700,820 times
Reputation: 1713
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
Which are the developed Asian legal systems? The only advanced legal system in Asia is Hong Kong's, the rest all have incredibly backwards sides to them. There's a reason why German system is heavily adopted in Asia because it's the model system.
I didn't say developed asian legal system. I said developed asian countries. That will include South Korea, Japan, Singapore and Hong Kong.

And yes, they do have backward sides to them, but all legal systems do. Since you mention Germany, remember Cologne? instead of actually stopping them, they just tried to cover up the crimes. There was 22 rapes, and 509 sex-crimes. 0 got convicted for sex-related crimes. You think that would have happened in Japan?

This is only one big incident, think about all the small incidents not mentioned in the media.

Last edited by Camlon; 03-30-2017 at 08:52 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-30-2017, 09:17 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,773 posts, read 5,116,323 times
Reputation: 4555
Quote:
And yes, they do have backward sides to them, but all legal systems do. Since you mention Germany, remember Cologne? instead of actually stopping them, they just tried to cover up the crimes. There was 22 rapes, and 509 sex-crimes. 0 got convicted for sex-related crimes. You think that would have happened in Japan?

This is only one big incident, think about all the small incidents not mentioned in the media.
When you don't have enough evidence, you can't convict a perpetrator, it's the number one principle on criminal prosecution. In cases like these, the perpetrators would always be hard to identify, and the evidence would be hard to collect (considering the size of the crowd on NYE). If you don't draw that line, you throw the presumption of innocence out of the window, and there'd be no rule of law. Yes, it sounds frustrating, but it's either this, or you start throwing innocent people into jail.

And I don't know if that would have happened in Japan, but I know that sexual harrassment is pretty much completely ignored there. They don't even get reported. (though that's more of a social stigma than a legal one)

Last edited by Greysholic; 03-30-2017 at 09:27 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-30-2017, 09:23 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,773 posts, read 5,116,323 times
Reputation: 4555
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattks View Post
The crime rate statistics for most Asian countries are complete bs, serious crimes like murder and rape are low in places like China, but theft is incredibly prevalent. Not just pickpocketing, but motorcycle and car theft are very common. The police simply don't report them. Also police will not normally get involved in domestic disputes, even if one person has gotten beaten.
That's common amongst developing countries. I find the crime statistics trust-worthy here. At least the obvious ones like murder, manslaughter, theft, robbery are. Stupid thefts go on national news here (yeah that's how stupid the news is here...petty crimes go on national news broadcast). And the reports on domestic violence have been steadily increasing (though it topped in 2012 and then stayed at around the same number since then), which is a good sign (women often do not report domestic violence), though I don't doubt that there are always more women who are still suffering in abusive marriages/relationships.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-30-2017, 09:29 AM
 
3,123 posts, read 2,700,820 times
Reputation: 1713
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
When you don't have enough evidence, you can't convict a perpetrator, it's the number one principle on criminal prosecution.
They could have gotten evidence from security cameras, from their electronic devices, from witnesses and from police officers who went in and observe the situation. There were plenty of ways they could have gotten evidence.

It is just an european excuse, it is perfectly possible to do both. And it would been a lot easier if they had surrounded them by police, instead of doing absolutely nothing and then try to cover it up.

Quote:
And I don't know if that would have happened in Japan, but I know that sexual harrassment is pretty much completely ignored there. They don't even get reported.
Not comparable, and crimes like these are massivly underreported in most countries. For instance here is the same results from the United States.
1 in 3 women has been sexually harassed at work
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-30-2017, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,773 posts, read 5,116,323 times
Reputation: 4555
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
They could have gotten evidence from security cameras, from their electronic devices, from witnesses and from police officers who went in and observe the situation. There were plenty of ways they could have gotten evidence.

It is just an european excuse, it is perfectly possible to do both. And it would been a lot easier if they had surrounded them by police, instead of doing absolutely nothing and then try to cover it up.
There could be millions of reasons why the incident wasn't recorded, and maybe there weren't that many CCTVs on the site. Germany is known for their emphasis on privacy.

And I prefer not to pass judgment on the covering up part before learning more about the case.


Quote:
Not comparable, and crimes like these are massivly underreported in most countries.
How about this.

Reported rape incidents
Japan:
2008 1582
2009 1402
2010 1289
2011 1185
2012 1240

Taiwan:
2008 8521
2009 9543
2010 10892
2011 13686
2012 15102


Japan's population is five times the size of Taiwan's, so according to this figure, a woman is 50 times more likely to be raped in Taiwan than in Japan. Is Taiwan 50 times more dangerous than Japan is? I don't think so.

Btw Taiwan uses the usual methodology on rape cases, it's not like in Sweden where one abusive relationship could be accounted for 1000 rapes.

Source: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%97...B2%BB%E5%AE%89
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-30-2017, 10:01 AM
 
3,123 posts, read 2,700,820 times
Reputation: 1713
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
There could be millions of reasons why the incident wasn't recorded, and maybe there weren't that many CCTV on the site.
Part of police/governments responsibility is to ensure there are CCTV on public places, so that when crime happens you can look at those recordings.

Also, this does not prevent them from getting evidence in other ways, for instance by having police observe the situation, by checking their electronic communication, talking to witnesses, and interrogation.

And you didn't explain why they didn't surround them by police. That way it would have been much easier to figure out who the perpetrators are.

Quote:
How about this.
...

Japan's population is five times the size of Taiwan's, so according to this figure, a woman is 50 times more likely to be raped in Taiwan than in Japan. Is Taiwan 50 times more dangerous than Japan is? I don't think so, as the crime rate in general on the same level.

Btw Taiwan uses the same methodology on rape cases, it's not like in Sweden where one abusive relationship could be accounted for 1000 rapes.
An abusive relationship in Sweden is not counted as 1000 rapes, that is just propaganda. They also don't have a high report rate, only 10% of rapes are reported, and it has declined from 20% in 2010.

But sure, you can't just look at reported cases. But you can look at victimization rates. OECD gives us data for victimization of violent crime. This is for 2010 and it already doesn't look very good in Europe. But it has gotten much worse in the last years. Sweden has its own statistics on victimization, the victimization rate for sexual crimes has doubled in the last 5 years.

Within the past 12 months: have you been assaulted or mugged?

Japan: 1.4%
Korea: 2.1%
Germany: 3.6%
Sweden: 5.1%
France: 5.6%

http://stats.oecd.org/

Last edited by Camlon; 03-30-2017 at 10:12 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-30-2017, 10:14 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,773 posts, read 5,116,323 times
Reputation: 4555
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
Part of police responsibility is to ensure there are CCTV on public places, so that when crime happens you can look at those recordings.

Also, this does not prevent them from getting evidence in other ways, for instance by having police observe the situation, by checking their electronic communication, talking to witnesses, and interrogation.
Again, I won't lay any judgment on this case before learning more about it. I'm just saying that there's a ton of reasons why they couldn't get enough evidence, and "trying to cover it up" is not one that I'd buy.


Quote:
They also don't have a high report rate, only 10% of rapes are reported, and it has declined from 20% in 2010.

But sure, you can't just look at reported cases. But you can look at victimization rates. OECD gives us data for victimization of violent crime. This is for 2010 and it already doesn't look very good in Europe. But it has gotten much worse the last years. Sweden has its own statistics on victimization, the victimization rate for sexual crimes has doubled in the last 5 years.

Japan: 1.4
Korea: 2.1
Germany: 3.6
Sweden: 5.1
France: 5.6
OECD Statistics
Given that most rapes are commited by acquaintances, report rate will always be low, but the extremely unproportional stats show that in Japan the report rate is probably just 1%, and I wasn't even comparing it to Western countries, I compared it to Taiwan, a country that's a lot more similar culturally, aka the prevalence of sexism is a lot worse than in the West, so these crimes often get underreported.

And never have I claimed that Japan was a violent country, it obviously is one of the safest countries in the world, if not the safest, but the fact that they only have this little rape report means that something is seriously wrong.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-30-2017, 10:25 AM
 
3,123 posts, read 2,700,820 times
Reputation: 1713
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
Again, I won't lay any judgment on this case before learning more about it. I'm just saying that there's a ton of reasons why they couldn't get enough evidence, and "trying to cover it up" is not one that I'd buy.
When I say, cover up. I am talking about covering up the whole incident, not the evidence. The next day the official press release on New Year’s Day described the celebrations as “peaceful”.
'Cover-up' over Cologne sex assaults blamed on migration sensitivities - Telegraph

Pretty disgusting, and that is what I would call seriously wrong. And it makes it even worse, that they didn't even do anything to stop it. Why didn't they surround them with police?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
Given that most rapes are commited by acquaintances, report rate will always be low. but the extremely unproportional stats show that in Japan the report rate is probably just 1%, and I wasn't even comparing it to Western countries, I compared it to Taiwan, a country that's a lot more similar culturally.

And never have I claimed that Japan was a violent country, it obviously is one of the safest countries in the world, if not the safest, but the fact that they only have this little rape report means that something is seriously wrong.
According to swedish victimization, 69% of all sexual assults are committed by complete strangers. The theory that most rapes are commited by acquaintances is only true if the rape rate is low.

But in terms of Japan vs Taiwan, the main reason is that they have different ways of reporting crime. In Japan, like in China, it is common to resolve crimes outside the courtroom. This is often better for both parties. This makes japanese and chinese statistics useless, but it doesn't indicate that something is seriously wrong.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Asia
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top