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Old 04-10-2017, 05:24 AM
 
Location: Asia
2,761 posts, read 1,104,133 times
Reputation: 2989

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangerous-Boy View Post
About dare you criticize the People's Republic of CHina botticelli will find you and put you in a labor camp.
He cannot do that. He lives, I assume by choice, in Canada. He'd have to move to China to put anyone in a labor camp for posting criticisms or even just unflattering words about China!

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Old 04-10-2017, 05:44 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,776 posts, read 5,131,359 times
Reputation: 4566
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
Actually Japan fertility rate is 1.42, which is higher than Germany. South Korea is a little bit lower, but they are trying to fix it. China has just reversed their one child policy, they will do the same when needed. However, Taiwan fertility rate is hovering around 1, and their population pyramid looks absolutly horrendus. Only immigration can fix Taiwans demographic problems, but because Taiwanese wages are low, it is instead experiencing a brain drain.

You tend to like Scandinavia, and there is one thing about Scandinavia you might not realize. Scandinavians are extremly positive and defensive about their countries, and if you got the right ideology they welcome criticism. This allows Scandinavia to have a rational discussion about most policies. The few issues that you are not allowed to debate, due to ideology, tend to cause a lot of trouble.

Taiwan could have subsidized kindergardens, give more than 8 weeks maternity leave, reduce work hours, tried to prevent out of pocket spending in education, and massively boost infrastructure spending. They can definitely afford it, because government spending is low, but I don't see many Taiwanese pushing for this. You said yourself that Taiwanese tend to be negative about their country, but being negative does not mean they actually provide constructive criticism.
I have no idea why this thread turned into about Taiwan's problems just because I said Taiwanese people complain a lot.

Scandinavians are proud and defensive about their countries (well according to you anyways) because you guys have things to be proud of, what do you suggest I do? Getting defensive about Taiwan? That's just silly and I'd never do that.

And no there's no money for any of that, the government is poor af; or maybe there is, but the retarded policing would only turn the budget into a pile of junk, that's what usually happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
"should complain more"? Who are you, Jesus? People complain as much as they think it is needed and based on how they feel about life in general, no?
First of all, I wasn't serious, so please calm your **** real quick.

Quote:
Like someone mentioned, people do complain a lot, but most Chinese simply do not care that much about what's going on far away from them, as long as they are somewhat fine with their own life. I know many here are obsessed with fancy words such as "democracy“ or "human rights" based on their own understanding, but if most Chinese are fine with the lack of it, who are you to say they must vigorously pursue it?

Freedom and equal rights don't come automatically. They take time. How long did the American women and blacks obtain the right to vote? How long did it take for the gays to get married? China had been a hot mess between 1840 and 1976 thanks for both external and internal chaos, and the country has been on the right track for only 40 years only, and has been improving people's living standard dramatically. Now many act as if as long as it is not up to western standards, it is hell.
Secondly, who even mentioned democracy? You're sadly mistaken if you think I care about China being a democracy or dictatorship, I really couldn't care less.

Finally I don't find your arguments convincing at all. Sure, other countries, in the west or not, fought for democracy, freedom, universal suffrage, or other forms of equality for a long time before it happened, no one is suggesting that China should just hold a nation-wide presidential election tomorrow and things would go as smoothly as in Switzerland, the point here is that in these earlier examples, the civil and political rights were gradually obtained, while China has shown zero improvement in this regard, despite economic growth and the progress of living stadards, which makes all these "time will bring change" talks completely vain.
Quote:
China indeed has so many problem. Freedom of speech, government corruption, bad legal systems, environment, food safety etc and etc. With rising living standards, people are demanding more and more, and believe it or not, no matter how repressive the CPP is, they are aware they would have to make concessions so that they can continue to govern under the one-party system. .
And how would locking down a town in which a high school kid was bullied to death, arbitrarily detaining foreigners travelling to China (eg. the Brit, the Swede, the Aussie, and most recently, a Taiwanese person), countless forced disappearances, or banning documentaries concerning air pollution be any help?

I'm not even being sarcastic, these are honest questions. How could these problems be solved when those who demanded what you just said are almost always forced to completely shut up?

Quote:
From Wikipedia:
Fascists believe that liberal democracy is obsolete, and they regard the complete mobilization of society under a totalitarian one-party state as necessary to prepare a nation for armed conflict and to respond effectively to economic difficulties. Such a state is led by a strong leader—such as a dictator and a martial government composed of the members of the governing fascist party—to forge national unity and maintain a stable and orderly society. Fascism rejects assertions that violence is automatically negative in nature, and views political violence, war, and imperialism as means that can achieve national rejuvenation. Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky through protectionist and interventionist economic policies.

The bolded parts fit contemporary China to a T to be honest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenTiger View Post
If there's a country that is worse in handling constructive criticism or any criticism for that matter, it is China. All things negative are pretty much swept under the rug in China. Taiwan might have its own problems, but IMHO, no one should follow China's policy on criticism as that is not an answer to any problem either.
I find it quite hilarious that we're painted as a butthurt people when all we do is saying how terrible we are in comparison to the others.
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Old 04-10-2017, 05:45 AM
 
Location: Asia
2,761 posts, read 1,104,133 times
Reputation: 2989
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
OK, I tell you why.

Most Chinese, especially the highly educated Chinese overseas, are very critical of the government. The complain all the time and many are jaded and cynical. The nationalists (who think China is great and hate the west) is a small bunch believe it or not, and they tend to be very young (under 25) and do not know much about the world.
Yeah, I know that some Chinese are critical of the government. I said the same.

But, I'm not some new-to-China kid that you can talk down to. I've been studying Chinese history, culture, philosophy, politics and language since I was 12 years old. I'm closing in on 60, now, and the past 30 years I have been living in Taiwan and traveling extensively and frequently in China, rather than living in Canada. And I have family in both Taiwan and China.

Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
The fact you see many Chinese defending China on foreign forums like this is very simple to understand: so much of the criticism about China from random westerners are very western-centric, and usually not objective. These people do not understand China and its complexities, nor do they care. They are biased and often ideological driven. They don't analyze China issue from a Chinese's perspective, rather they habitually talk from a moral highground in a preaching way, which is both annoying and unhelpful.
No. I don't think that's it, at all. That's the new explanation.

There is no need to analyze anything from China's perspective. I'm sure that will make you spit your coffee out this morning... you drink coffee, don't you? Not tea, right?

I am well aware that the West and China look at human rights from different perspectives. That, however, does not give the Chinese people, IMO, a justification for disregarding China's violations of Western ideas of human rights. Its even more strange that Chinese who live in the West give so little thought to Chinese violations of human rights (again, the Western concept of human rights).

Its all well and good to explain that human rights from the Chinese perspective refers to the right to subsistence. While that explains the perspective, it does not justify the reflex to defend China's honor from criticisms leveled by Western people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Just to give you an example: only last Friday some Americans were dismissively commenting on China's "sweatshops" as proof of China's lack of human rights. I hear this rather often, and usually I don't argue with them because it shows their completely lack of understanding of China. While those workers work under horrible condition, it is far better than the alternative - go back to the countryside and work "freely" for a fraction of the salary. They are willing to work under such horrible workplace place because it is their best opportunity to make money, improve their standard of living, and save and give their children a better chance of a better life. What do you expect, 35 work hours with 20 paid vacations, healthcare including visions and dental? China is barely a mid-income country which just crawled from "third world". Millions of Chinese live under a few dollars a day, and westerners often ignore that and keep preaching about their "human rights" and "freedom". Sorry, those poor workers have more serious things to worry about. That's not the say the government can't enforce better regulation in terms of work conditions etc., it should, but for this stage, it is neither practical nor implementable. Trust me, those sweat shop workers are living a much better life than 20 years ago when they had to toil in the field with no hope.
That's not relevant to the incident that I cited in my original post of this thread. People making the decision to do labor under difficult circumstances where the alternative is worse is not news to me, nor is it something I criticize. We have thousands of foreign workers here in Taiwan working as domestic helpers and factory workers, and in the opinion of most Western people, the Taiwanese treat them barely better than slaves. I understand full well why these poor people come to Taiwan to work under these circumstances.

But, the incident I posted about is an example of the rampant corruption in China of leaders in cities and towns and villages all over China. Yes, the people of the town where this incident happened took to the streets in anger and the police forcibly sent them packing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
The same Chinese are very likely to criticise harshly on other forums, especially among themselves. For example, mitbbs.com and wenxuecity.com are two forums for these Chinese. If you do read Chinese, go through those websites and you will be surprised how most Chinese are not a fan of their government. If at all, they tend to be too critical and pro-western sometimes.
Yes. I already said that I know that some Chinese are critical, amongst themselves, and usually when they feel safe in doing so.

But, I am criticizing (or simply commenting on) the fact that the slightest criticism of China, regardless of how foul the event that triggered the criticism, brings out ethnic Chinese such as yourself, to defend China and tell us silly foreigners that we know nothing of China and its people and the circumstances there. How can we foreigners, who can barely learn to use chopsticks to eat, ever expect to comprehend the Chinese and their 5000 years of history? And we critical of China, how dare we look at China from our perspective, as if our perspective has no value?

No. You validate my observation with many of your posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Additionally, it is human nature to be protective of their own country, when (often unfairly) judged and slammed by outsiders, even when one agrees with the facts to a large extent. Look at the American and European forum and you will know. I think all sorts of "nationalism" or "patriotism" is stupid, but it is equally stupid to think the Chinese are more blindly nationalistic than for example Americans.
I think you're wrong, and that you don't see this, living in Canada, illustrates that you wear blinders when it comes to China.

The US is split politically in at least two primary camps. Americans, at least half of them, feel no reflexive need to defend the US from criticism. At any time, half of the US population is openly criticizing the US and our policies.

It is definitely not the same with China and the Chinese.

That is my point. And its a very obvious point, at that.
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Old 04-10-2017, 07:14 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,276,120 times
Reputation: 7586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
Well it is horrifying news. I heard that the town is under a lockdown, scary ****.

But to be fair, there are dissenters, like these.
http://i.imgur.com/1H0u4Wg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DQkLor8.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/hk0TXaY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/R4pgGzD.jpg
Most might not be able to read it, this is how MOST Chinese really think about their government in real life. There is no question about the corruption.

But why don't people just "rise up and fight"? They simply don't care as long as it doesn't affect them. Plus, the system is bad, but it still manages to improve people's lives rapidly. Change is not necesarily good, and could catastrophic.
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Old 04-10-2017, 07:39 AM
 
3,123 posts, read 2,705,725 times
Reputation: 1714
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
I have no idea why this thread turned into about Taiwan's problems just because I said Taiwanese people complain a lot.
The reason is because you said that "Taiwanese complain a lot", and I asked "How has that helped Taiwan?". Negativity sometimes makes the problems worse, because then you cannot differentiate between what is working and what is not working.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
Scandinavians are proud and defensive about their countries (well according to you anyways) because you guys have things to be proud of, what do you suggest I do? Getting defensive about Taiwan? That's just silly and I'd never do that.
Taiwanese also have things to be proud off. For instance the low crime rate, the rapid growth, school results, the beautiful nature and the tasty food. I know you prefer Scandinavia, but I prefer Taiwan. We like different things.

To be able see what can be improved, you need to be able to see what actually works in Taiwan. If everything was terrible, then Taiwan would be as poor as Zimbabwe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
And no there's no money for any of that, the government is poor af; or maybe there is, but the retarded policing would only turn the budget into a pile of junk, that's what usually happens.
.
Taiwan government spending is only 18.7% of their GDP. That is incredibily low, almost the same level as Hong Kong. South Korea is spending 32.2%, Japan is spending 40% and Finland is spending 58%. In fact most european countries spend more than 50%.

Taiwanese government is not terribly inefficient, and it is completly possible to increase spending on families. But if your attitude is "it would just turn into a pile of junk", then nothing will be done.

Last edited by Camlon; 04-10-2017 at 08:33 AM..
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Old 04-10-2017, 07:46 AM
 
Location: Asia
2,761 posts, read 1,104,133 times
Reputation: 2989
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Most might not be able to read it, this is how MOST Chinese really think about their government in real life. There is no question about the corruption.
No, I can read that. Nothing really deep, in terms of difficult to read, being posted there.

But, you seem to be having difficulty reading my English.

I know that many Chinese complain about the Chinese government among themselves.

But, they typically, like you, become defensive and patriotic and condescending when foreign nationals comment/criticize certain aspects of China.
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Old 04-10-2017, 08:13 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,776 posts, read 5,131,359 times
Reputation: 4566
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
The reason is because you said that "Taiwanese complain a lot", and I asked "How has that helped Taiwan?". Negativity sometimes makes the problems worse, because then you cannot differentiate between what is working and what is not working.

Taiwanese also have things to be proud off. For instance the low crime rate, the rapid growth, school results, the beautiful nature and the tasty food. I know you prefer Scandinavia, but I prefer Taiwan. We like different things.

Taiwan government spending is only 18.7% of their GDP. That is incredibily low, almost the same level as Hong Kong. South Korea is spending 32.2%, Japan is spending 40% and Finland is spending 58%. In fact most european countries spend more than 50%.

Taiwanese government is not terribly inefficient, and it is completly possible to increase spending on families. But if your attitude is "it would just turn into a pile of junk", then nothing will be done.
You have absolutely no idea how bad the governance is in Taiwan.

The government spending is low because the government revenue is extremely low, even lower than Singapore by percentage. The business owners keep requesting the government to make the tax rate even lower, now the business tax rate is ****ing 5%, while the PIT accounts for 51% of the tax revenue. The government has absolutely zero intention of balancing the corporate taxes, the rich barely pay any ****. Yes, things could improve if the idiotic fiscal policy (amongst other things) was reformed, but I know the political reality in Taiwan too well to believe in any possible change. There are always constructive criticisms from some people, but the reality is that those in power never listen, the democracy is so faible that they don't give a single **** about what's really good for the citizens.

By the way, the low crime rate is completely offset by the extremely high traffic death and injury rates, so it means nothing; the rapid growth happened like 30 years ago, now the growth rate is basically like Japan; the school results are only good because of the feeble-minded rote education (though that goes for all of East Asia), the higher education is a ****ing joke; the nature is largely wrecked by the pollution and all the fug, illegal factories; and finally, regarding food, there's gutter oil, amongst plenty of other food safety scandals popping up in the frequency of every other week.

So no, I don't feel proud at all, in fact I just feel annoyed.

/rantover

Last edited by Greysholic; 04-10-2017 at 08:21 AM..
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Old 04-10-2017, 08:18 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,276,120 times
Reputation: 7586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salmonburgher View Post

But, they typically, like you, become defensive and patriotic and condescending when foreign nationals comment/criticize certain aspects of China.
Tell me if most Americans are not "condescending" about anything China.

You probably post this just to ask for an argument with me, which is pretty clear from your last paragraph. It is a western/US dominated forum, and voices from real Chinese/impartial westerners are few and often buried by the same condescending attitudes you loathe.

And it is also about objectivity. Look at your own previous threads/posts (or those of dangerousboy) about China. How many of them are positive. What you select to talk about also shows your friendliness/hostility toward China.

Criticism is fine. But they don't like criticisms for the sake of showing how bad China is, which is what you prefer doing. The Chinese people are fully aware of it.

The key point is, if the Chinese people who live in China are not that concerned about "democracy" or "human rights" and seem fine with how things are going, which is the case now, then repeatedly pounding on it and trying to impose it is meaningless. It just shows ideological differences, nothing new to see since the 1940s. China and the Chinese don't seem to talk so much about the racial inequality, lack of universal healthcare, not to mention all the foreign policy aggression in the US, do they?

Let me give you another example: while criticising the Chinese government creating a fake democratic election process for HK in pre-approving the candidates HKers can elect, many American forget completely it is almost exactly how the presidential candidates in the US are chosen, definitely not by the people, but by the party and their assessment who can get the most corporate sponsorship! The founding fathers didn't dare allow Americans to elect their president directly by designing this system, then the Americans are like "why not give HK true democracy!" It is almost comic to watch.

It is very easy to detect the difference between constructive criticism to help China better better, and destruction criticism aiming to place China in the worst light possible. Nobody is that stupid.
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Old 04-10-2017, 08:26 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,276,120 times
Reputation: 7586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
You have absolutely no idea how bad the governance is in Taiwan.

The government spending is low because the government revenue is extremely low, even lower than Singapore by percentage. The business owners keep requesting the government to make the tax rate even lower, the business tax rate is ****ing 5%, while the PIT accounts for 51% of the tax revenue. The government has absolutely zero intention of balancing the corporate taxes, the rich barely pay any ****. Yes, things could improve if the idiotic fiscal policy (amongst other things) was reformed, but I know the political reality in Taiwan too well to believe in any possible change. There are always constructive criticisms from some people, but the reality is that those in power never listen, the democracy is so faible that they don't give a single **** about what's really good for the citizens.

By the way, the low crime rate is completely offset by the extremely high traffic death and injury rates, so it means nothing; the rapid growth happened like 30 years ago, now the growth rate is basically like Japan; the school results are only good because of the feeble-minded rote education (though that goes for all of East Asia), the higher education is a ****ing joke; the nature is largely wrecked by the pollution and all the fug, illegal factories; and finally, regarding food, there's gutter oil, amongst plenty of other food safety scandals popping up in the frequency of every other week.

So no, I don't feel proud at all, in fact I just feel annoyed.

/rantover
haha. I think you are overly pessimistic about Taiwan. It quickly transformed into one of the developed countries in the world within a few decade. That's not something easy - there are still quite few developed countries in the world!

And you also told a true story about side effects of democracy - the government would have to please whoever are influential in the economy and might keep doing short sighted things to get elected. Low tax always sounds good, until the government has money to do anything.

The fascination with low taxes is very prevalent among the entire East Asia. Some of my friends express envy about Scandinavia too, and I dismissed their admiration by asking "are you prepared to pay 50% income taxes to get all the nice things" - none of is. Asians countries can never be like Norway or Sweden because most people are too selfish and only care about having more of their own money. Most think the poor deserve to be poor because they didn't work hard enough or are just stupid. It is very different from a Scandinavian spirit, where sharing wealth and happiness is considered important.
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Old 04-10-2017, 08:37 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,776 posts, read 5,131,359 times
Reputation: 4566
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
And you also told a true story about side effects of democracy - the government would have to please whoever are influential in the economy and might keep doing short sighted things to get elected. Low tax always sounds good, until the government has money to do anything.

The fascination with low taxes is very prevalent among the entire East Asia. Some of my friends express envy about Scandinavia too, and I dismissed their admiration by asking "are you prepared to pay 50% income taxes to get all the nice things" - none of is. Asians countries can never be like Norway or Sweden because most people are too selfish and only care about having more of their own money. Most think the poor deserve to be poor because they didn't work hard enough or are just stupid. It is very different from a Scandinavian spirit, where sharing wealth and happiness is considered important.
That's not the side effects of democracy, that's the effects of weak democracy.

And I was not talking about income taxes, but corporate and business taxes. It would never work if the income taxes were raised here, the government is too corrupt, it'd just end up like Italy or Greece.


Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Most might not be able to read it, this is how MOST Chinese really think about their government in real life. There is no question about the corruption.

But why don't people just "rise up and fight"? They simply don't care as long as it doesn't affect them. Plus, the system is bad, but it still manages to improve people's lives rapidly. Change is not necesarily good, and could catastrophic.
And to bring things back to topic, who's advocating people to rise up and fight? There's a middle ground between locking down all the information when something happens/forced disappearances of journalists, environmentalists, and human rights activists/detaining foreigners/banning books and documentaries that the Big Brother considers rebellious and a full-on revolution, quite a large one. If people in China don't really mind these problems as you claim, why take such ridiculous measures?
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