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Old 04-10-2017, 08:46 AM
 
3,123 posts, read 2,703,036 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
You have absolutely no idea how bad the governance is in Taiwan.

The government spending is low because the government revenue is extremely low, even lower than Singapore by percentage. The business owners keep requesting the government to make the tax rate even lower, now the business tax rate is ****ing 5%, while the PIT accounts for 51% of the tax revenue. The government has absolutely zero intention of balancing the corporate taxes, the rich barely pay any ****. Yes, things could improve if the idiotic fiscal policy (amongst other things) was reformed, but I know the political reality in Taiwan too well to believe in any possible change. There are always constructive criticisms from some people, but the reality is that those in power never listen, the democracy is so faible that they don't give a single **** about what's really good for the citizens.
If you want those policies, then you need to campaign for them. Not just give up and say it is hopeless.

And it is not just the coorporate tax. Income tax for an average person is around 5%. Payroll tax is 9% and GST is 5%. In Sweden the income tax for an average person is 30%, payroll tax is 38% and GST is 25%. Pluss they got a lot of fees. Of course you cannot get a lot of revenue when taxes are that low.

I am conservative, but Taiwan goes too far. You need some taxes to support a decent government. And Taiwanese who agree should vote for parties who support this, and go out and protest. If you don't, then it is your own fault.
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Old 04-10-2017, 09:14 AM
 
3,123 posts, read 2,703,036 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
That's not the side effects of democracy, that's the effects of weak democracy.

And I was not talking about income taxes, but corporate and business taxes. It would never work if the income taxes were raised here, the government is too corrupt, it'd just end up like Italy or Greece.
No Taiwan will not become like Greece. In Greece the income tax is 22 - 45%, payroll tax is 40%, sales tax is 24%, corporate tax is 29%, property tax is 0 -2% of the property's value, and to make matters even worse they added a business poll tax of 1000 euros per year. And like scandinavia they have a lot of fees.

Greece thought they could solve their budget problems by imposing higher and higher taxes. it failed really badly, because if you don't evade taxes you will go bankrupt.
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Old 04-10-2017, 09:42 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,262,981 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
That's not the side effects of democracy, that's the effects of weak democracy.

And I was not talking about income taxes, but corporate and business taxes. It would never work if the income taxes were raised here, the government is too corrupt, it'd just end up like Italy or Greece.
Give me an example of "strong democracy"?

In the US, the two parties bicker so much that they can't even start to have an adult conversation about serious issues, rather they are more interested in block each other, irrespective of what is being proposed. In France, the mere possibility of any labour reform leads massive protest and the government had to water down the policy significantly. In Toronto, the government talked about a fre8ing subway plan for the past 8 years, had 100 meetings, produced 100 reports, even voted 12 times and still nobody has any idea whether this thing will be built, not to mention the route.

It is very hard to be both democratic and efficient.

Regarding corporate tax, Wikipedia shows taiwan is at 17%, which is at par with Switzerland and Singapore, guess that's not too crazily low.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
And to bring things back to topic, who's advocating people to rise up and fight? There's a middle ground between locking down all the information when something happens/forced disappearances of journalists, environmentalists, and human rights activists/detaining foreigners/banning books and documentaries that the Big Brother considers rebellious and a full-on revolution, quite a large one. If people in China don't really mind these problems as you claim, why take such ridiculous measures?
Well, that I totally agree. While I don't think China is in any rush to be democratic, persecution of any political dissidents, journalists and ectivities are not only stupid, but also completely unnecessary. It solves absolutely nothing and just give itself a bad reputation.

Like you said, there is a middle ground for this as well, and the government should not go such extremes to ban this and that. Banning google? That's the most stupid thing I have heard. If people want to protest, just let them protest. I think fundamentally, the CCP feels insecure.
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Old 04-10-2017, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
9,779 posts, read 13,357,013 times
Reputation: 11309
My wife showed me a video that purports to be of the boy being beaten to death; if it's true, then it's quite brutal. The video was shared in a wechat group she's in, but taken down not long after.

Honestly, the whole thing wouldn't surprise me. It wouldn't be the first time in China that a group of punk kids with wealthy and powerful parents committed horrible crimes and then those parents used their influence to shield their child from punishment.
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Old 04-10-2017, 06:26 PM
 
Location: Asia
2,761 posts, read 1,102,358 times
Reputation: 2989
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Tell me if most Americans are not "condescending" about anything China.
Most Americans don't care anything about China.

But, so what if they are? That does not excuse the Chinese inability to accept criticism from non-Chinese.

As I've posted repeatedly, I live in Asia and have been here for years. Americans constantly hear criticism of the US and US policies from everyone who is not from the US and even from some from the US. Half of those Americans accept and agree with the criticisms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
You probably post this just to ask for an argument with me...
Please! Hahaha! No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
And it is also about objectivity. Look at your own previous threads/posts (or those of dangerousboy) about China. How many of them are positive. What you select to talk about also shows your friendliness/hostility toward China.
Blah blah blah. I've been following China, with both admiration and disgust for 50 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Criticism is fine. But they don't like criticisms for the sake of showing how bad China is, which is what you prefer doing. The Chinese people are fully aware of it.
Nonsense. That is a refrain you guys sing, over and over. In fact, while you post this, you complain. The Chinese are not fine with criticism. You guys moan about the butt-hurt of a billion people every time China is criticized. China and the Chinese are always complaining about having the feelings of a billion people hurt. Its laughable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
The key point is, if the Chinese people who live in China are not that concerned about "democracy" or "human rights" and seem fine with how things are going, which is the case now, then repeatedly pounding on it and trying to impose it is meaningless.
Its just criticism/observation. Nobody is trying to force democracy on China. Just stop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
It just shows ideological differences, nothing new to see since the 1940s. China and the Chinese don't seem to talk so much about the racial inequality, lack of universal healthcare, not to mention all the foreign policy aggression in the US, do they?
Uh... Yes, they do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Let me give you another example: while criticising the Chinese government creating a fake democratic election process for HK in pre-approving the candidates HKers can elect, many American forget completely it is almost exactly how the presidential candidates in the US are chosen, definitely not by the people, but by the party and their assessment who can get the most corporate sponsorship! The founding fathers didn't dare allow Americans to elect their president directly by designing this system, then the Americans are like "why not give HK true democracy!" It is almost comic to watch.
Its comic to see you misunderstand things. You cannot meaningfully compare the US election system with Beijing's manipulation of the HK elections. Nice try, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
It is very easy to detect the difference between constructive criticism to help China better better, and destruction criticism aiming to place China in the worst light possible. Nobody is that stupid.
Oh, get over it. No matter what criticism/observation is made, you Chinese patriots (who refuse to live in China) make this same worn out claim. Again, its laughable and totally predictable.
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Old 04-10-2017, 08:24 PM
 
Location: Taipei
6,774 posts, read 5,122,827 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
If you want those policies, then you need to campaign for them. Not just give up and say it is hopeless.

And it is not just the coorporate tax. Income tax for an average person is around 5%. Payroll tax is 9% and GST is 5%. In Sweden the income tax for an average person is 30%, payroll tax is 38% and GST is 25%. Pluss they got a lot of fees. Of course you cannot get a lot of revenue when taxes are that low.

I am conservative, but Taiwan goes too far. You need some taxes to support a decent government. And Taiwanese who agree should vote for parties who support this, and go out and protest. If you don't, then it is your own fault.
You are in for a big disappointment if you think it's that easy for small parties to gain widespread support. This is not Norway, the corruption is rampant and bribery is common, small parties are fringes.
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Old 04-11-2017, 01:57 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
You are in for a big disappointment if you think it's that easy for small parties to gain widespread support. This is not Norway, the corruption is rampant and bribery is common, small parties are fringes.
It is you who will get disapointed, because that is not true in Norway, or anywhere else. Only small centrist parties have a lot of power, but small parties on the left or right do not have a lot of power.

Also, how does corruption and bribery prevent Taiwan from spending more money on families. There are other countries that are much more corrupt than Taiwan, who provide much better maternity leave, and who subsidize kindergarderdens. The reason they can afford it, is because they have a higher tax rate.

But you have a never ending list of excuses why Taiwan cannot increase spending on families. They cannot afford it, higher taxes will make Taiwan like Greece, they are just going to throw away the money, and it is just too corrupt. With that kind of attitude nothing will get fixed. I think the main reason little is being done, is because Taiwanese are very focused on the independence issue, and then they forget about economic issues.
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Old 04-11-2017, 04:48 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,774 posts, read 5,122,827 times
Reputation: 4566
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
It is you who will get disapointed, because that is not true in Norway, or anywhere else. Only small centrist parties have a lot of power, but small parties on the left or right do not have a lot of power.

Also, how does corruption and bribery prevent Taiwan from spending more money on families. There are other countries that are much more corrupt than Taiwan, who provide much better maternity leave, and who subsidize kindergarderdens. The reason they can afford it, is because they have a higher tax rate.

But you have a never ending list of excuses why Taiwan cannot increase spending on families. They cannot afford it, higher taxes will make Taiwan like Greece, they are just going to throw away the money, and it is just too corrupt. With that kind of attitude nothing will get fixed. I think the main reason little is being done, is because Taiwanese are very focused on the independence issue, and then they forget about economic issues.
But in successful democracies there are multiple powerful parties to choose from, here there are only two, and they are both disgusting.

Corruption and bribery prevent new parties to gain widespread support, poor education too. People get angry when tax rate is raised, so the government revenue will always be low.

And no those aren't excuses, those are the reality. The reality is that the policing is extremely poor and the government and bureaucracy are extremely untrustworthy and just plain stupid.

And really people care about economic issues way more than independence issues, it's just that the cronies are too powerful, the institution is too weak, the population is too uneducated, and the politicians are too retarded. I guess you just don't understand it because Norway is the exact opposite.
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Old 04-11-2017, 05:24 AM
 
3,123 posts, read 2,703,036 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
But in successful democracies there are multiple powerful parties to choose from, here there are only two, and they are both disgusting.
Taiwan has a mix of proportional representation and geographical representation. A small party will get some representatives, so you don't have to vote for the two parties. It is definitely more difficult to vote for a third party in for instance the US.

Being unhappy about your choices is a common opinion in a lot of democracies. It is not going to prevent you from voting for parties that will increase social welfare or campaign for it. And saying that both parties are terrible is a little bit premature when you haven't even given Democratic Alliance a real chance. Kuomintang and his allies has got the majority in the Legislative Yuan in every election, except in 2016.

Sure Democratic Alliance has "won" a few elections, but their coalition didn't have the majority to implement their policies.

Quote:
Corruption and bribery prevent new parties to gain widespread support, poor education too. People get angry when tax rate is raised, so the government revenue will always be low.
So the problem is that people disagree with you, which you think is due to low education. They want the low taxes. If you want change, you need to convince them, not just say "Taiwan is terrible, and if we increase taxes, the money will probably be wasted.".

There are countries that are much more corrupt than Taiwan, they are still able to provide some welfare. Even Scandinavia would not be able to collect much taxes, if the taxes was as low as Taiwan.

Quote:
I guess you just don't understand it because Norway is the exact opposite.
My perspective is a little bit wider than just Norway. I have lived in China, New Zealand, United States and Norway. Are they all the exact opposite of Taiwan?

Last edited by Camlon; 04-11-2017 at 06:01 AM..
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Old 04-11-2017, 06:34 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,262,981 times
Reputation: 7586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salmonburgher View Post

Its comic to see you misunderstand things. You cannot meaningfully compare the US election system with Beijing's manipulation of the HK elections. Nice try, though.
Don't see the fundamental difference.

The US presidential candidates need to be screened and approved by the Party elites (and the money behind it) and the HK candidates need to be vetted and preapproved by the CPP (which itself has disagreement and factions). I am not saying neither is real democracy, but they are similar mechanim.

To pretend the US presidential election is a REAL democractic process is laughable. Yeah, voters get to choose the lesser of the two evils, like last year. Great entertainment though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salmonburgher View Post

Oh, get over it. No matter what criticism/observation is made, you Chinese patriots (who refuse to live in China) make this same worn out claim. Again, its laughable and totally predictable.
It is obvious that you were seeking a fight from very beginning, and I will not keep entertaining you.
Good day sir.
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