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Old 04-11-2017, 07:17 AM
 
Location: Asia
2,761 posts, read 1,101,784 times
Reputation: 2989

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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Don't see the fundamental difference.
I'll try to explain the obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
The US presidential candidates need to be screened and approved by the Party elites (and the money behind it) and the HK candidates need to be vetted and preapproved by the CPP (which itself has disagreement and factions). I am not saying neither is real democracy, but they are similar mechanim.
HK is supposed to be an autonomous region for 50 years. Beijing was not supposed to meddle with HK democracy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
To pretend the US presidential election is a REAL democractic process is laughable. Yeah, voters get to choose the lesser of the two evils, like last year. Great entertainment though.
Who is pretending anything? Do you really not understand?

The US is not a pure democracy. That is by deliberate design. The US is founded as a constitutional republic, a representative rather than a pure democracy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
It is obvious that you were seeking a fight from very beginning, and I will not keep entertaining you.
What is truly obvious you cannot see, and what you believe is obvious is not.

But, you do validate my observation that many Chinese are unable to accept criticism.
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Old 04-11-2017, 07:22 AM
 
4,665 posts, read 2,638,373 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Don't see the fundamental difference.

The US presidential candidates need to be screened and approved by the Party elites (and the money behind it) and the HK candidates need to be vetted and preapproved by the CPP (which itself has disagreement and factions). I am not saying neither is real democracy, but they are similar mechanim.

To pretend the US presidential election is a REAL democractic process is laughable. Yeah, voters get to choose the lesser of the two evils, like last year. Great entertainment though.



It is obvious that you were seeking a fight from very beginning, and I will not keep entertaining you.
Good day sir.
The US election process is very democratic. My guess is you don't understand the primary process. The members of the political parties vote in the primaries to choose their candidates. Anyone can join any political party. The US is a 2 party system, but at least it allows real competition and opposing viewpoints. It's very different from China.

Jeb Bush way overspent not only Trump, but multiple other candidates and he came no where close to winning. Trump, who I didn't support, obviously won in spite of the party elites trying to stop him. Clinton also overspent Trump and lost. She also had far more big name political endorsements.

China's political process has advantages and disadvantages. I'm not going to get into other political debates and the Hong Kong debate. But the US democratic process isn't really laughable, it just highlights Americans views, take what you will from that.
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Old 04-11-2017, 08:13 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,773 posts, read 5,119,529 times
Reputation: 4565
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
Taiwan has a mix of proportional representation and geographical representation. A small party will get some representatives, so you don't have to vote for the two parties. It is definitely more difficult to vote for a third party in for instance the US.

Being unhappy about your choices is a common opinion in a lot of democracies. It is not going to prevent you from voting for parties that will increase social welfare or campaign for it. And saying that both parties are terrible is a little bit premature when you haven't even given Democratic Alliance a real chance. Kuomintang and his allies has got the majority in the Legislative Yuan in every election, except in 2016.

Sure Democratic Alliance has "won" a few elections, but their coalition didn't have the majority to implement their policies.


So the problem is that people disagree with you, which you think is due to low education. They want the low taxes. If you want change, you need to convince them, not just say "Taiwan is terrible, and if we increase taxes, the money will probably be wasted.".

There are countries that are much more corrupt than Taiwan, they are still able to provide some welfare. Even Scandinavia would not be able to collect much taxes, if the taxes was as low as Taiwan.
DPP is not an alliance, it's just a party, and they've been proven to be a huge disappointment so far, even by the lowest standards possible. I'm not getting into that.

I'm not even disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that they aren't possible for various reasons.

And which are these corrupt countries with strong welfare?

Last edited by Greysholic; 04-11-2017 at 08:22 AM..
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Old 04-11-2017, 08:45 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,258,456 times
Reputation: 7581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattks View Post
The US election process is very democratic. My guess is you don't understand the primary process. The members of the political parties vote in the primaries to choose their candidates. Anyone can join any political party. The US is a 2 party system, but at least it allows real competition and opposing viewpoints. It's very different from China.

Jeb Bush way overspent not only Trump, but multiple other candidates and he came no where close to winning. Trump, who I didn't support, obviously won in spite of the party elites trying to stop him. Clinton also overspent Trump and lost. She also had far more big name political endorsements.

China's political process has advantages and disadvantages. I'm not going to get into other political debates and the Hong Kong debate. But the US democratic process isn't really laughable, it just highlights Americans views, take what you will from that.
Of course HK's "election" is a joke. No doubt about it.

However, i don't think the primary elecion is that democratic either.

Just to give you on statistics: in the 2016 election, among those eligible US voters (adults who are not in prison), only 14% voted for either Trump or Clinton in the primaries. Actually only one out of 7 wanted either of the candidates to be present.

Does this sound the election result represents people's voices and preference. Yet year after year, American impose two candidates each party likes and ask people to choose as president.

As to money, of course it is not always the biggest money that gets election, but come on, 500 million+ nowadays is a minimum and Clinton spend over 1.2 billion (for comparison purposes the French president Hollande spent about $25 million, and corporate/union donation is banned). Trump's spending of 700M is quite low by present standards. Most of the money comes from corporate donors, and you can't tell me 1) those companies talk for the people 2) those candidates don't "owe" them anything.

It may appear democratic, but it certainly is not.
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Old 04-11-2017, 09:36 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,258,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post

And which are these corrupt countries with strong welfare?
Italy?
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Old 04-11-2017, 11:10 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,258,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattks View Post
The US election process is very democratic. My guess is you don't understand the primary process. The members of the political parties vote in the primaries to choose their candidates. Anyone can join any political party. The US is a 2 party system, but at least it allows real competition and opposing viewpoints.
Also, I forget to add the super delegates have significant power in determining who gets chosen as the candidate. This shouldn't happen. I thought everyone is created equal in the constitution?

To claim the 2 party system constitutes "real competition" is a bit wishful thinking. In the past 150 years, both chambers have never had more than 2 representatives that are not from the two major parties, although more than half of the voters want to have a 3rd party.

What is democracy? It is not about having an election. It is about trying the best to give each voter the voice he deserves, and with the same weight. In the US, it is simply not the case.

And yes, the US is a semi-democracy. People often forget that.
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Old 04-11-2017, 01:55 PM
 
501 posts, read 461,668 times
Reputation: 747
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Also, I forget to add the super delegates have significant power in determining who gets chosen as the candidate. This shouldn't happen. I thought everyone is created equal in the constitution?
Super-delegates only exist in the democratic party primaries for president, the republican party doesn't use them at all and local democratic party elections do not really either. Also remember that primaries are private processes that parties use to pick their candidates for public office--the constitution has nothing to do with this as it is not a governmental process, it is a private group (a political party) picking their candidates for public office. They could flip coins or play card games to determine their candidates and it would still be totally legal and totally fine if that is what their party member want to do. Not all states use primaries, some use caucuses and other weird (and imo out-dated) processes.

Elections for public office are ALWAYS one person one vote. Votes for most offices are direct democracy. Votes for the presidency, of course, are not--people do not vote for the president, states do (via the electoral collage). States get to pick their own rules for how this works--some states give all their delegates to whatever candidate wins the popular vote in their state, some split them evenly--this is up to the states on purpose because the US in a federation of states, and the founders did not want the federal government setting the rules for how states should behave.

Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
And yes, the US is a semi-democracy. People often forget that.
I don't understand what this means.
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Old 04-11-2017, 04:36 PM
 
4,665 posts, read 2,638,373 times
Reputation: 3342
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Also, I forget to add the super delegates have significant power in determining who gets chosen as the candidate. This shouldn't happen. I thought everyone is created equal in the constitution?

To claim the 2 party system constitutes "real competition" is a bit wishful thinking. In the past 150 years, both chambers have never had more than 2 representatives that are not from the two major parties, although more than half of the voters want to have a 3rd party.

What is democracy? It is not about having an election. It is about trying the best to give each voter the voice he deserves, and with the same weight. In the US, it is simply not the case.

And yes, the US is a semi-democracy. People often forget that.
Please don't try to make your own definition of words, Democracy does not mean that. You are simply going to confuse people and create misunderstanding.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/democracy

Political parties are private organizations, they are not government organizations. They can select who they want how they want. Super delegates are only used by the Democratic Party in the presidential election and even then it has never decided a candidate. I don't agree with the usage of superdelegates either, but using that as a reason or your main reason is silly.

You are also completely ignoring all the local, state, federal, judges, mayors, police chiefs, treasurers, and the enormous amount of other public offices in which people get elected. Many of those offices are non-partisan, meaning they don't allow political party influence as well. Many of those races will have 3-5 candidates.

I personally would like to see our laws amended so allow more multiparty elections, but that doesn't mean we are semi-democratic. The various political factions have to unite under 1 party. They call the Republican Party the big tent party for a reason. There are moderates, conservatives, libertarians, and even a few liberals, many times they work together, but not always.
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Old 04-11-2017, 11:29 PM
 
Location: Earth
4,515 posts, read 3,095,891 times
Reputation: 3356
free tibet!
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Old 04-12-2017, 01:30 AM
 
Location: Beautiful Pennsylvania / Dull Germany
2,214 posts, read 2,632,057 times
Reputation: 2090
Usually in the US people are not beaten down if they criticize the president or political decisions. Freedom of speach and press are essential parts of a democracy. Without the one, the other cannot exist.
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