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No. They do not ALWAYS complain. They often support and defend.
Yes. I can read Chinese.
I know that some Chinese dissent.
I am referring the the billion who do not.
OK, I tell you why.
Most Chinese, especially the highly educated Chinese overseas, are very critical of the government. The complain all the time and many are jaded and cynical. The nationalists (who think China is great and hate the west) is a small bunch believe it or not, and they tend to be very young (under 25) and do not know much about the world.
The fact you see many Chinese defending China on foreign forums like this is very simple to understand: so much of the criticism about China from random westerners are very western-centric, and usually not objective. These people do not understand China and its complexities, nor do they care. They are biased and often ideological driven. They don't analyze China issue from a Chinese's perspective, rather they habitually talk from a moral highground in a preaching way, which is both annoying and unhelpful.
Just to give you an example: only last Friday some Americans were dismissively commenting on China's "sweatshops" as proof of China's lack of human rights. I hear this rather often, and usually I don't argue with them because it shows their completely lack of understanding of China. While those workers work under horrible condition, it is far better than the alternative - go back to the countryside and work "freely" for a fraction of the salary. They are willing to work under such horrible workplace place because it is their best opportunity to make money, improve their standard of living, and save and give their children a better chance of a better life. What do you expect, 35 work hours with 20 paid vacations, healthcare including visions and dental? China is barely a mid-income country which just crawled from "third world". Millions of Chinese live under a few dollars a day, and westerners often ignore that and keep preaching about their "human rights" and "freedom". Sorry, those poor workers have more serious things to worry about. That's not the say the government can't enforce better regulation in terms of work conditions etc., it should, but for this stage, it is neither practical nor implementable. Trust me, those sweat shop workers are living a much better life than 20 years ago when they had to toil in the field with no hope.
The same Chinese are very likely to criticise harshly on other forums, especially among themselves. For example, mitbbs.com and wenxuecity.com are two forums for these Chinese. If you do read Chinese, go through those websites and you will be surprised how most Chinese are not a fan of their government. If at all, they tend to be too critical and pro-western sometimes.
Additionally, it is human nature to be protective of their own country, when (often unfairly) judged and slammed by outsiders, even when one agrees with the facts to a large extent. Look at the American and European forum and you will know. I think all sorts of "nationalism" or "patriotism" is stupid, but it is equally stupid to think the Chinese are more blindly nationalistic than for example Americans.
Last edited by botticelli; 04-10-2017 at 01:54 AM..
Well maybe you guys should complain more. You know, harsher, like Taiwanese people do.
"should complain more"? Who are you, Jesus? People complain as much as they think it is needed and based on how they feel about life in general, no?
Like someone mentioned, people do complain a lot, but most Chinese simply do not care that much about what's going on far away from them, as long as they are somewhat fine with their own life. I know many here are obsessed with fancy words such as "democracy“ or "human rights" based on their own understanding, but if most Chinese are fine with the lack of it, who are you to say they must vigorously pursue it?
Freedom and equal rights don't come automatically. They take time. How long did the American women and blacks obtain the right to vote? How long did it take for the gays to get married? China had been a hot mess between 1840 and 1976 thanks for both external and internal chaos, and the country has been on the right track for only 40 years only, and has been improving people's living standard dramatically. Now many act as if as long as it is not up to western standards, it is hell.
China indeed has so many problem. Freedom of speech, government corruption, bad legal systems, environment, food safety etc and etc. With rising living standards, people are demanding more and more, and believe it or not, no matter how repressive the CPP is, they are aware they would have to make concessions so that they can continue to govern under the one-party system. However, westerners will be disappointed if they expect China to adopt a full multi-party system any time soon. That will not happen and that will not be good either. China is very unlikely to follow a western model although many are brainwashed to think that's the only good model. China probably will stick out like a sore thumb for a VERY long time before making any dramatic political changes, and the west would just have to deal with it, like it or not.
Last edited by botticelli; 04-10-2017 at 01:53 AM..
Well maybe you guys should complain more. You know, harsher, like Taiwanese people do.
And how has that helped Taiwan? In many aspects Taiwan is underperforming relative to other developed asian countries. The wages are low, safety standards are weak, almost nothing is getting built and the current infrastructure is not maintained and Taiwan got severe demographic problems and little is being done to fix it.
Maybe if Taiwanese was less negative, and instead focused on constructive criticism, then Taiwan would have gotten better results.
China indeed has so many problem. Freedom of speech, government corruption, bad legal systems, environment, food safety etc and etc. With rising living standards, people are demanding more and more, and believe it or not, no matter how repressive the CPP is, they are aware they would have to make concessions so that they can continue to govern under the one-party system.
Good posts. I feel that people who focus on democratic rights in China are not understanding the situation. What people want right now is things like independent courts, better work hours for both adults and kids, improving health care and reduce pollution.
If China had democracy, I am quite sure it would be dominated by factions, such as farmers, southerners and northerners. Parties would pander to their groups and ignore what is best for the country. That would not fix China's problems, just like Democracy is not fixing Philippines and India's problems.
Good posts. I feel that people who focus on democratic rights in China are not understanding the situation. What people want right now is things like independent courts, better work hours for both adults and kids, improving health care and reduce pollution.
If China had democracy, I am quite sure it would be dominated by factions, such as farmers, southerners and northerners. Parties would pander to their groups and ignore what is best for the country. That would not fix China's problems, just like Democracy is not fixing Philippines and India's problems.
Let's look at America: the founding fathers even realized that the general people are not reliable and therefore they designed an indirect presidential election system - the elites of the parties voted for the candidates they deem suitable, and then allow the population to vote between them. They didn't trust the general population and didn't dare to let them decide how to govern a country.
If someone has any slight understanding China, he should know the vast majority of people do not anything about politics, or the economy or anything outside their small life. What's worse, it is very easy for them to be incited and get worked up. just look at how they broke Japanese made cars owned by Chinese people during any Japanese-Chinese confrontation. If they get to vote, the country will go backwards by at least 10 years.
The priority is improve people's lives, not just economically, but in terms education resourcs, healthcare, food, air quality etc. as well. they last thing they should worry about is whether they get to vote for their government. There is absolutely no evidence that shows democracy creates prosperity, among western world or in Asia, unless China can go out and colonize Africa or Latin America like the European powers did in the 19th century.
And like you said, China doesnt want to be India or the Philippines.
And how has that helped Taiwan? In many aspects Taiwan is underperforming relative to other developed asian countries. The wages are low, safety standards are weak, almost nothing is getting built and the current infrastructure is not maintained and Taiwan got severe demographic problems and little is being done to fix it.
Maybe if Taiwanese was less negative, and instead focused on constructive criticism, then Taiwan would have gotten better results.
First of all, it was a joke.
You got it reversed, things started getting bad (not that it was particularly good before), then people started getting negative.
Honestly the notion that positivity would bring prosperity sounds absolutely hilarious to me, as if feel-good bs and blind pride would bring any good. You are strongly mistaken if you think negativity is the reason to the terrible situation here.
Besides, let's not pretend as if other Asian countries are doing anything to fix the demographic problem, at least Japan and Korea aren't, and China most likely won't, either.
You got it reversed, things started getting bad (not that it was particularly good before), then people started getting negative.
Honestly the notion that positivity would bring prosperity sounds absolutely hilarious to me, as if feel-good bs and blind pride would bring any good. You are strongly mistaken if you think negativity is the reason to the terrible situation here.
Besides, let's not pretend as if other Asian countries are doing anything to fix the demographic problem, at least Japan and Korea aren't, and China most likely won't, either.
Actually Japan fertility rate is 1.42, which is higher than Germany. South Korea is a little bit lower, but they are trying to fix it. China has just reversed their one child policy, they will do the same when needed. However, Taiwan fertility rate is hovering around 1, and their population pyramid looks absolutly horrendus. Only immigration can fix Taiwans demographic problems, but because Taiwanese wages are low, it is instead experiencing a brain drain.
You tend to like Scandinavia, and there is one thing about Scandinavia you might not realize. Scandinavians are extremly positive and defensive about their countries, and if you got the right ideology they welcome criticism. This allows Scandinavia to have a rational discussion about most policies. The few issues that you are not allowed to debate, due to ideology, tend to cause a lot of trouble.
Taiwan could have subsidized kindergardens, give more than 8 weeks maternity leave, reduce work hours, tried to prevent out of pocket spending in education, and massively boost infrastructure spending. They can definitely afford it, because government spending is low, but I don't see many Taiwanese pushing for this. You said yourself that Taiwanese tend to be negative about their country, but being negative does not mean they actually provide constructive criticism.
And how has that helped Taiwan? In many aspects Taiwan is underperforming relative to other developed asian countries. The wages are low, safety standards are weak, almost nothing is getting built and the current infrastructure is not maintained and Taiwan got severe demographic problems and little is being done to fix it.
Maybe if Taiwanese was less negative, and instead focused on constructive criticism, then Taiwan would have gotten better results.
If there's a country that is worse in handling constructive criticism or any criticism for that matter, it is China. All things negative are pretty much swept under the rug in China. Taiwan might have its own problems, but IMHO, no one should follow China's policy on criticism as that is not an answer to any problem either.
If there's a country that is worse in handling constructive criticism or any criticism for that matter, it is China. All things negative are pretty much swept under the rug in China. Taiwan might have its own problems, but IMHO, no one should follow China's policy on criticism as that is not an answer to any problem either.
If you talk about the Chinese government, you are right. The government is stubborn and arrogant in admitting any mistakes. I would have little respect for it in this respect before it can be frank about the atrocity Mao committed during the 1960s and 70s. It should apologize to what happened to affected families but that probably won't happen.
But the Chinese people, I don't think so. They are the same as people in other countries. Some are simply uneducated and don't what is going on, and some are simply sick of the criticism based on bias and ignorance due to western arrogance.
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