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View Poll Results: Which do you prefer?
Shanghai 9 32.14%
Taipei 19 67.86%
Voters: 28. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-07-2017, 07:28 PM
 
Location: Taipei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
That is mostly because you dislike asian values. For someone that actually likes asian values, then Taipei and Shanghai are not that bad.

I have been to both places. I really loved the wibe, the nature and the people in Taiwan, but I was not very impressed by the skyline or the infrastructure. Shanghai is definitely pretty if you look at the skyline, but I didn't find the place very interesting. Hence Taipei beats Shanghai.
What are these "Asian Values"? Totalitarianism? Homophobia? Misogyny? Rote education? Workaholism? Pollution? Xenophobia? Death penalty? Ignorance? Racism? Conservatism? OTT nationalism?

Yeah they are great and I can't get enough of them. I'm just glad that Taiwan at least has a lot less of those in certain areas (though just as bad as others, or worse, in other areas. So I'm totally done with it and ready to leave the hell out).
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Old 06-07-2017, 07:29 PM
 
Location: Taipei
6,776 posts, read 5,131,359 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
You must be kidding here. There are a lot of different possible particle interactions, but to imply that an inherently foggier place is what it takes for terrible air pollution to be a problem is ridiculous. You certainly can't be trying to argue that, right?

Just take it as is--Shanghai does not have great air quality. It does have bad air pollution, but there are numerous cities that have it worse. To toss up your hands and say that the level of air pollution there is de facto acceptable is stupid. The fog and the general changeability of the weather and the precipitation patterns Shanghai's coastal location gives it is what gives the city relief. It's why the Yangtze Delta region is such an industrial force compared to Beijing, but doesn't get as thoroughly screwed.

I have lived in Shanghai and I visit regularly. It is an actual issue. It may not be anywhere near the worse affected in the world, but why would anyone want that to be the bar to measure against? I applaud policies targeted towards bettering the air quality and the idea that this should not be a baseline level that people should just live with.
My point exactly, apart from the last part as I don't give a crap about Shanghai. But merci anyway.

Last edited by Greysholic; 06-07-2017 at 07:56 PM..
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Old 06-08-2017, 01:48 AM
 
3,123 posts, read 2,705,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
What are these "Asian Values"? Totalitarianism? Homophobia? Misogyny? Rote education? Workaholism? Pollution? Xenophobia? Death penalty? Ignorance? Racism? Conservatism? OTT nationalism?

Yeah they are great and I can't get enough of them. I'm just glad that Taiwan at least has a lot less of those in certain areas (though just as bad as others, or worse, in other areas. So I'm totally done with it and ready to leave the hell out).
You are just proving my point, your dislike against East Asia is more personal than it is objective.

East Asian values include social conservatism, tough punishments, study and work hard, low immigration, focus on family first, and of course nationalism. You hate these values and would prefer a progressive country like Sweden. But for someone that has different values than you like my family, then East Asia is quite nice.

I am sure you understand that people are different. Hence, I suggest you start saying that you dislike Taiwan, instead of just saying Taiwan is crap.
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Old 06-08-2017, 02:15 AM
 
6,726 posts, read 6,614,442 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
You are just proving my point, your dislike against East Asia is more personal than it is objective.

East Asian values include social conservatism, tough punishments, study and work hard, low immigration, focus on family first, and of course nationalism. You hate these values and would prefer a progressive country like Sweden. But for someone that has different values than you like my family, then East Asia is quite nice.

I am sure you understand that people are different. Hence, I suggest you start saying that you dislike Taiwan, instead of just saying Taiwan is crap.
Selfloathing is very common in Taiwan. If you compare Taiwanese with south Koreans, you will be shocked by their different attitudes on many things, especially the influence of Japanese colonists.
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Old 06-08-2017, 02:17 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,776 posts, read 5,131,359 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
You are just proving my point, your dislike against East Asia is more personal than it is objective.

East Asian values include social conservatism, tough punishments, study and work hard, low immigration, focus on family first, and of course nationalism. You hate these values and would prefer a progressive country like Sweden. But for someone that has different values than you like my family, then East Asia is quite nice.

I am sure you understand that people are different. Hence, I suggest you start saying that you dislike Taiwan, instead of just saying Taiwan is crap.
Those values are wrong, and it's not like people in the west don't work hard or don't care about family. The long working hours in Asia just means that the efficiency and productivity are low, and the family argument is silly. All happy families are alike, while all unhappy families are unhappy in their own way. There are plenty of dysfunctional families in Asia as well, domestic violence, rape, emotional abuse, control freaks that drive their kids crazy ... you name it, they don't exist exclusively in the basement of Austria.

Besides, for societies that value so much on family, the environment is so toxic for children that no one is having any. Just ask yourself if you'd want to have kids in China or back home in Norway, I'm sure it'd be an easy pick. And Idk why you always bring up Sweden as if it was a failed state when it's obviously one of the most well-functioning nation states in the world. Probably because Norway is better by a hair? For the oil, accidentally given by Denmark?

And finally, I do dislike Taiwan, precisely because it's so crap. If it was nicer like Japan, another Asian country, then I'd like it more. It's that simple.
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Old 06-08-2017, 03:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
Those values are wrong, and it's not like people in the west don't work hard or don't care about family. The long working hours in Asia just means that the efficiency and productivity are low, and the family argument is silly.
Long working hours are not supported by anyone, and is something east Asian countries try to improve. Most people I know in China work normal working hours.

But that is one the negatives about Asia, just like health care is a negative in the united states. However, nationalism or social conservatism is not a negative, it is a value.

Quote:
Besides, for societies that value so much on family, the environment is so toxic for children that no one is having any. Just ask yourself if you'd want to have kids in China or back home in Norway, I'm sure it'd be an easy pick. And Idk why you always bring up Sweden as if it was a failed state when it's obviously one of the most well-functioning nation states in the world. Probably because Norway is better by a hair? For the oil, accidentally given by Denmark?
I did ask myself that question, and I ended up picking China, despite the problems such as pollution. I share a lot of values with Chinese, I like their food and I simply cannot let my kid go through the Norwegian school system. I see how the kids are turning out, they develop unhealthy sexual habits, they don't learn much, they don't plan for the future and they keep making mistakes. A lot of people waste their 20s doing almost nothing, and about 50% of men in my generation will end up alone. The oil is rescuing them for now, but not for long.

Also, its not like I have a choice, my wife will not stay in Norway. She keep getting frustrated by Norway. The reason I really dislike Sweden is because it is like Norway, but worse.
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Old 06-08-2017, 04:04 AM
 
Location: Taipei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
Long working hours are not supported by anyone, and is something east Asian countries try to improve. Most people I know in China work normal working hours.

But that is one the negatives about Asia, just like health care is a negative in the united states. However, nationalism or social conservatism is not a negative, it is a value.
Try to improve, with little or no actual results, that's usually what happens.

Nationalism on a benign level is probably an asset, but countries like China or Korea take it way too far. Social conservatism is just pathetic. I won't even try to argue with that because there's just no point.


Quote:
I did ask myself that question, and I ended up picking China, despite the problems such as pollution. I share a lot of values with Chinese, I like their food and I simply cannot let my kid go through the Norwegian school system. I see how the kids are turning out, they develop unhealthy sexual habits, they don't learn much, they don't plan for the future and they keep making mistakes. A lot of people waste their 20s doing almost nothing, and about 50% of men in my generation will end up alone. The oil is rescuing them for now, but not for long.

Also, its not like I have a choice, my wife will not stay in Norway. She keep getting frustrated by Norway. The reason I really dislike Sweden is because it is like Norway, but worse.
So you think an education system where kids grow up happy and are allowed to develop critical thinking is worse than a system where kids have to do stupid homework every night, are imposed by retarded indoctrination, and are deemed worthless if they don't excel academically? I think you feel this way because you didn't go through such system, and you only know those who succeeded under this system while ignoring the 98% that didn't. I did go through it, and as a student who scored well on most exams, I can tell you that it was absolutely painful. And I'm saying this from a Taiwanese POV, in China it's probably 100 times worse.

And where does this 50% of men in your generation thing come from? Is there official stats? Also what does "unhealthy sexual habits" even mean? Like gay sex? Orgy? Neither sounds particularly unhealthy to me as long as there's adequate protection. The days of people saving themselves for wedding night are long gone, even in China.
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Old 06-08-2017, 04:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
Try to improve, with little or no actual results, that's usually what happens.

Nationalism on a benign level is probably an asset, but countries like China or Korea take it way too far. Social conservatism is just pathetic. I won't even try to argue with that because there's just no point.
That is usually what happens in all countries. Problems are hard to fix, or they wouldn't be problems.

And I don't care that you think social conservatism is pathetic.

Quote:
So you think an education system where kids grow up happy and are allowed to develop critical thinking is worse than a system where kids have to do stupid homework every night, are imposed by retarded indoctrination, and are deemed worthless if they don't excel academically?
Not everyone is happy, and the Norwegian system do not lead to critical thinking. Students in Norway tend to think very alike, textbooks and teachers spend a lot of time telling students what is the correct opinion, and students struggle to understand basic concepts. It gets a little bit better when they get older, but that is only because people read up themselves.

In China your critical thinking ability mostly depends on your parents and not the school system.

Quote:
I think you feel this way because you didn't go through such system, and you only know those who succeeded under this system while ignoring the 98% that didn't. I did go through it, and as a student who scored well on most exams, I can tell you that it was absolutely painful. And I'm saying this from a Taiwanese POV, in China it's probably 100 times worse.
My wife grew up under such system, so that argument makes no sense. I do know someone who weren't the best students but they turned out fine. You don't have to go to the best universities in China to get a decent job.

Quote:
And where does this 50% of men in your generation thing come from? Is there official stats? Also what does "unhealthy sexual habits" even mean? Like gay sex? Orgy? Neither sounds particularly unhealthy to me as long as there's adequate protection. The days of people saving themselves for wedding night are long gone, even in China.
The problem with sexual habits in Norway, is that people start having sex way too early, and have too much random sex. This doesn't only lead to psychological problems, it also lead to diseases and a lot of people wait too long to start a family.

Statistically in Norway around 25% of men around 40 do not have children and it is increasing every year. Most of them live by themselves. About 50% get divorced,and a lot of them don't remarry. The result is that about 50% will end up by themselves.

Last edited by Camlon; 06-08-2017 at 05:45 AM..
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Old 06-08-2017, 04:46 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,776 posts, read 5,131,359 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
Not everyone is happy, and the Norwegian system do not lead to critical thinking. Students in Norway tend to think very alike, textbooks and teachers encourage students to have a certain opinion, and students struggle to understand basic concepts. It gets a little bit better when they get older, but that is only because people read up themselves.

In China your critical thinking ability mostly depends on your parents and not the school system.
Here people struggle to understand basic concepts as well, and textbooks and teachers also encourage students to have a certain opinion (study your ass off or you are a loser).


Quote:
My wife grew through such system, so that argument makes no sense. Most students do fine, and I do know someone who weren't the best students but they turned out fine. You don't have to go to the best universities in China to get a decent job.
Probably because they have rich parents. You don't have to work hard if your parents are loaded, that's just the way it is.

Quote:
The problem with sexual habits in Norway, is that people start having sex way too early, and have too much random sex. This doesn't only lead to psychological problems, it also lead to diseases and a lot of people wait too long to start a family.

Approximately 25% of men around 40 do not have children and it is increasing every year. Most of them live by themselves. About 50% get divorced,and a lot of them don't remarry. The result is that about 50% will end up by themselves.
This is such an outdated concept on family. Lots of people are happily single and have no intention to have kids. Kids are a huge liability to lots of people.

It's so naive to assume the traditional family of four to be ideal. Like I said plenty of families suffer from domestic violence, alcoholism, emotional abuse, infidelity etc. Being divorced and free at 40 is way better than being stuck in a marriage that doesn't work at 40.
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Old 06-08-2017, 05:03 AM
 
3,123 posts, read 2,705,725 times
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Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
Here people struggle to understand basic concepts as well, and textbooks and teachers also encourage students to have a certain opinion (study your ass off or you are a loser).
In my experience educated Chinese are better at understanding basic concepts. If you had a conversation about overpopulation with a Chinese student, it would probably involve a lot of questions. Sometimes they will actually know something about the issue which is pretty cool.

However, if you had the same conversation with a Norwegian student, it would not work at all unless you want the conversation to be meaningless. They are likely to change topic, have a strong opinion even though they do not know basic facts such as the population of Nigeria, and you cannot explain the concept with numbers because that will remind them of math.

Quote:
Probably because they have rich parents. You don't have to work hard if your parents are loaded, that's just the way it is.
They are not rich. In fact I know very few rich people, and I don't like rich Chinese too much. I like spending time with middle class Chinese people.

You don't have to work hard to get a decent job. In fact one person I know spent several years just playing computer games, and did not get an university degree. His salary is not high, but he is back on his feet.

Quote:
This is a very outdated concept on family. Lots of people are happily single and have no intention to have kids. Kids are a huge liability to lots of people.

It's so naive to assume the traditional family of four to be ideal. Like I said plenty of families suffer from domestic violence, alcoholism, emotional abuse, infidelity etc. Being divorced and free at 40 is way better than being stuck in a marriage that doesn't work at 40.
Most Norwegians do not intentionally remain single, so no its definitely not a positive thing. Its not outdated, we need families to bring up the next generation, and in most cases kids need two parents to succeed.

Last edited by Camlon; 06-08-2017 at 05:18 AM..
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