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Old 01-18-2019, 12:33 AM
 
226 posts, read 52,146 times
Reputation: 34

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Quote:
Originally Posted by manolopo View Post
Indonesia has 6X the land area and 2.5X the population, and you're really bragging about how it gets 2.12X more tourists in 2017? That's completely expected. Indonesia is a bigger country in every way possible. It should have more tourists. If it had less tourists than the Philippines, then something would be seriously wrong. Yes, there are places and countries that are doing very well for their size.

Indonesia is one of the countries that is "undertouristed"

Indonesia is 4th on the list for least tourists per capita.

'Overtourism': Countries with the most tourists per head of population

I dont think this is a bad thing though. The good thing about Indonesia and the Philippines is they're not overrun with tourists like Mainland Southeast Asia.
Bragging?
It's you who keep making statement, more of excuses though, about how small tourist arrival to Philippines compared to Indonesia because Phil has smaller landmass and smaller population. When in fact, countries like Malaysia or Thailand is able to attract many more foreign tourists than even Indonesia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manolopo View Post
Those are beautiful islands, btw. We have similar islands around Siargao, Coron and El Nido

But now they're overrun with tourists. So having more tourists isnt necessarily a good thing.
Indeed. Philippines shares so many similarities with eastern Indonesia in term of landscapes, esp. around Sulawesi, Moluccas, and western part of Papua. Dramatic limestone cliffs meet white sandy beaches. I like that.
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Old 01-18-2019, 03:12 AM
 
480 posts, read 190,723 times
Reputation: 141
hi Manolopo, have you been to Bali ?? even tourists in bali who exceed the capacity of tourist in mainland Asian even exceed the local population, yeah in Bali you can see all visitors from various countries such as Australia, China, USA, UK ,Korea, Russia, German, France, Japan etc. thers, sorry you might be wrong one person who hasn't been to Bali, I hope you can visit there sometime later.
Bali, Lombok, Jokya, Komodo, Raja Ampat is a favorite place, tourists who come to Indonesia are increasing.
Indo is not like PH ..tourists come to Philip who only want to find pinays to be their satisfaction nah defferent with tourist in Indo them enjoy the beauty of Indo nature
How pinoys proud with 1 million Koreans came to visit PH haha smile, while Indo tons of million tourist came from western country / eastern asia hahaha, smile
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Old 01-18-2019, 05:42 AM
 
392 posts, read 102,946 times
Reputation: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michiko_shanyang View Post
hi Manolopo, have you been to Bali ?? even tourists in bali who exceed the capacity of tourist in mainland Asian even exceed the local population, yeah in Bali you can see all visitors from various countries such as Australia, China, USA, UK ,Korea, Russia, German, France, Japan etc. thers, sorry you might be wrong one person who hasn't been to Bali, I hope you can visit there sometime later.
Bali, Lombok, Jokya, Komodo, Raja Ampat is a favorite place, tourists who come to Indonesia are increasing.
Indo is not like PH ..tourists come to Philip who only want to find pinays to be their satisfaction nah defferent with tourist in Indo them enjoy the beauty of Indo nature
How pinoys proud with 1 million Koreans came to visit PH haha smile, while Indo tons of million tourist came from western country / eastern asia hahaha, smile

You sound super pathetic. Are Western tourists somehow better than Korean tourists? Why. Because they're white? I bet you wish Indonesia was colonized longer.

You'll see a mix of Western and East Asian tourists all over the top tourist spots in the Philippines. Places like Boracay, Palawan, Siargao, various Visayan islands like Bohol.



Here's a beach in Bohol.

This beach isnt even close to being the most beautiful in the Philippines. It's actually kinda ugly. But notice how many foreign tourists there are.


Just be glad that Indonesia is one of the least-touristed countries. It's better that tourists aren't overcrowding the place (except Bali)
'Overtourism': Countries with the most tourists per head of population



Boracay only has a population of 30,000 but it was attracting 1 million foreign tourists and 1 million Filipino tourists. Look how crowded it got


That's why the president closed down the island for 6 months to clean it up. Now he limited the number of tourists who can even come to the island. More tourists doesnt mean better
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Old 01-18-2019, 06:43 AM
 
392 posts, read 102,946 times
Reputation: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Landove View Post
Bragging?
It's you who keep making statement, more of excuses though, about how small tourist arrival to Philippines compared to Indonesia because Phil has smaller landmass and smaller population. When in fact, countries like Malaysia or Thailand is able to attract many more foreign tourists than even Indonesia.



Indeed. Philippines shares so many similarities with eastern Indonesia in term of landscapes, esp. around Sulawesi, Moluccas, and western part of Papua. Dramatic limestone cliffs meet white sandy beaches. I like that.
Thats because Thailand and Malaysia are waaaaay more touristy than the Philippines or Indonesia. I’ll add Vietnam and Singapore to that list. Those countries have far more tourists per capita. Philippines has fewer tourists per capita. And Indonesia has the least tourists per capita out of the 6 countries I’ve mentioned
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Old 01-18-2019, 10:04 PM
 
226 posts, read 52,146 times
Reputation: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by manolopo View Post
Thats because Thailand and Malaysia are waaaaay more touristy than the Philippines or Indonesia. Iíll add Vietnam and Singapore to that list. Those countries have far more tourists per capita. Philippines has fewer tourists per capita. And Indonesia has the least tourists per capita out of the 6 countries Iíve mentioned
Okay enough. I won't argue anymore about tourist percapita or whatever. Useless.

If it makes you happy ... So be it.


Now I know why Metro Manila, despite having less developed public transportation, less developed highways and other infrastructure, almost comparable land area but higher population than Jakarta, has less traffic. Vehicles registration in Metro Manila is just 10 million compared to Jakarta's 18 million. Yeah in average, Manilans likely commute less than Jakartans.



Anyway, although Jakarta has lots of problems and not in anyway considered as interesting tourist destination even by local Indonesians, surprisingly Jakarta was able to attract 3.5 million international tourists in 2016, far lower than Bali's capital city, Denpasar, visited by 6.3 million, but way ahead of Metro Manila visited by only 1.3 million.


https://blog.euromonitor.com/white_p...-2017-edition/


So is it safe for me to say, Jakarta has higher tourist percapita as well as higher tourist vs land area than MetroManila?
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Old 01-18-2019, 11:38 PM
 
392 posts, read 102,946 times
Reputation: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Landove View Post
Okay enough. I won't argue anymore about tourist percapita or whatever. Useless.

If it makes you happy ... So be it.


Now I know why Metro Manila, despite having less developed public transportation, less developed highways and other infrastructure, almost comparable land area but higher population than Jakarta, has less traffic. Vehicles registration in Metro Manila is just 10 million compared to Jakarta's 18 million. Yeah in average, Manilans likely commute less than Jakartans.



Anyway, although Jakarta has lots of problems and not in anyway considered as interesting tourist destination even by local Indonesians, surprisingly Jakarta was able to attract 3.5 million international tourists in 2016, far lower than Bali's capital city, Denpasar, visited by 6.3 million, but way ahead of Metro Manila visited by only 1.3 million.


https://blog.euromonitor.com/white_p...-2017-edition/


So is it safe for me to say, Jakarta has higher tourist percapita as well as higher tourist vs land area than MetroManila?
Even most people who dont own a car still commute. There are other forms of transportation, like taxis, grab, buses, UV Express. These are all going to clog up the road and add to commute times. Manila is more densely populated, so commute times should be more. Just because you dont own a car doesnt mean you're not adding to the traffic. Neither Manila nor Jakarta are doing a good job with traffic. So it's pointless to brag about big highways when traffic is still slightly worse in Jakarta. And building big highways often encourages people to buy cars. Just read this

"The Science Is Clear: More Highways Equals More Traffic. Why Are DOTs Still Ignoring It?"

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2017/06/...l-ignoring-it/

But Jakarta still thinks it's a better city for building more highways. Manila is doing the same, but at least it's trying to create areas that aren't dependent on cars.

I mean, which one looks like a more enjoyable experience?

Major business district in Jakarta


Major business district in Manila


BGC is full of life. SCBD is full of cars
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Old 01-18-2019, 11:52 PM
 
392 posts, read 102,946 times
Reputation: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Landove View Post
Okay enough. I won't argue anymore about tourist percapita or whatever. Useless.

If it makes you happy ... So be it.


Now I know why Metro Manila, despite having less developed public transportation, less developed highways and other infrastructure, almost comparable land area but higher population than Jakarta, has less traffic. Vehicles registration in Metro Manila is just 10 million compared to Jakarta's 18 million. Yeah in average, Manilans likely commute less than Jakartans.



Anyway, although Jakarta has lots of problems and not in anyway considered as interesting tourist destination even by local Indonesians, surprisingly Jakarta was able to attract 3.5 million international tourists in 2016, far lower than Bali's capital city, Denpasar, visited by 6.3 million, but way ahead of Metro Manila visited by only 1.3 million.


https://blog.euromonitor.com/white_p...-2017-edition/


So is it safe for me to say, Jakarta has higher tourist percapita as well as higher tourist vs land area than MetroManila?

People who go to Bali or other parts of Indonesia often stop in Jakarta and spend time there. Just like people who visit Palawan. Boracay, etc often spend time in Manila, at least for a few days. Just like when people go to Thailand, they usually stop in Bangkok first. So it's not surprising that Jakarta would have more visitors. It's the gateway to a much bigger country. But do you really think that most of those people fly to Jakarta just to spend time in Jakarta? Why would they do that? Just to shop in a mall or drive on a highway? In both the Philippines and Indonesia, most foreign tourists aren't flying all the way there just to spend time in the capital city. You're delusional if you think 3.5 million people did that.


And more important that tourist numbers. How many foreigners actually live and work in each country? The Philippines has a lot more, 115,000 compared to 74,000 in Indonesia. Note that these numbers dont include foreigners who retire in the Philippines or Indonesia, because these are numbers for workers only.

https://www.emigrate.co.uk/news/2018...-expat-workers

https://www.ibai.or.id/news/item/288...indonesia.html

And this is despite the fact that the Indonesia has a much higher population. So per capita, the number of foreigners living in Indonesia is much lower. Foreigners actually live in the Philippines at a higher rate, and this is very apparent when you go to places like BGC in Manila. You'll see lots of families of foreigners walking around. Just in BGC alone, there are 5 international schools: The International School of Manila, the British School of Manila, Chinese International School, Manila Japanese School, and Korean International School
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Old 01-19-2019, 08:06 AM
 
226 posts, read 52,146 times
Reputation: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by manolopo View Post
Even most people who dont own a car still commute. There are other forms of transportation, like taxis, grab, buses, UV Express. These are all going to clog up the road and add to commute times. Manila is more densely populated, so commute times should be more. Just because you dont own a car doesnt mean you're not adding to the traffic. Neither Manila nor Jakarta are doing a good job with traffic. So it's pointless to brag about big highways when traffic is still slightly worse in Jakarta. And building big highways often encourages people to buy cars. Just read this
Don't contradic with your own logic lah .... Jakarta has more highways, better public transportation (higher capacity), and worse traffic. How come Jakartans commute less than Manilans? Are those jeepneys, taxis in Manila flying instead of running on land?


Quote:
Originally Posted by manolopo View Post
People who go to Bali or other parts of Indonesia often stop Jakarta and spend time there. Just like people who visit Palawan. Boracay, etc often spend time in Manila, at least for a few days. Just like when people go to Thailand, they usually stop in Bangkok first. So it's not surprising that Jakarta would have more visitors. It's the gateway to a much bigger country. But do you really think that most of those people fly to Jakarta just to spend time in Jakarta? Why would they do that? Just to shop in a mall or drive on a highway? In both the Philippines and Indonesia, most foreign tourists aren't flying all the way there just to spend time in the capital city. You're delusional if you think 3.5 million people did that.
That's not an EXCUSE of having only 1.5 million foreign visitors though It's not a problem at all to have people visiting Jakarta for a few days and then go to other parts of Indonesia the other days. What's wrong with that?


Quote:
And more important that tourist numbers. How many foreigners actually live and work in each country? The Philippines has a lot more, 115,000 compared to 74,000 in Indonesia. Note that these numbers dont include foreigners who retire in the Philippines or Indonesia, because these are numbers for workers only.
That's NOT IMPORTANT at all. You have rather confusing logic, don't you? Number of people taking out money is more important than number of people bringing in money? And you feel proud about it.

We, Indonesians, are trying to be independent and limit foreign workers as few as possible in our law. So, I'm happy to have less foreigner working here.

Quote:
And this is despite the fact that the Indonesia has a much higher population. So per capita, the number of foreigners living in Indonesia is much lower. Foreigners actually live in the Philippines at a higher rate, and this is very apparent when you go to places like BGC in Manila. You'll see lots of families of foreigners walking around. Just in BGC alone, there are 5 international schools: The International School of Manila, the British School of Manila, Chinese International School, Manila Japanese School, and Korean International School
What's next? Number of lizard percapita? or number of president percapita?
I know what you are doing there, honey. Playing "percapita" card as your advantage to look somehow better than Indonesia in your imagination. Just admit.
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Old 01-19-2019, 09:27 AM
 
392 posts, read 102,946 times
Reputation: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Landove View Post
Don't contradic with your own logic lah .... Jakarta has more highways, better public transportation (higher capacity), and worse traffic. How come Jakartans commute less than Manilans? Are those jeepneys, taxis in Manila flying instead of running on land?


That's not an EXCUSE of having only 1.5 million foreign visitors though It's not a problem at all to have people visiting Jakarta for a few days and then go to other parts of Indonesia the other days. What's wrong with that?


That's NOT IMPORTANT at all. You have rather confusing logic, don't you? Number of people taking out money is more important than number of people bringing in money? And you feel proud about it.

We, Indonesians, are trying to be independent and limit foreign workers as few as possible in our law. So, I'm happy to have less foreigner working here.


What's next? Number of lizard percapita? or number of president percapita?
I know what you are doing there, honey. Playing "percapita" card as your advantage to look somehow better than Indonesia in your imagination. Just admit.
Jakarta has worse traffic despite having more highways and a lower population density. So the highways clearly aren't doing a good job at meeting demand. And I already posted a source that proves that building more highways causes more traffic because it encourages people to buy cars.

There's no problem with people visiting Jakarta or Manila and then going to other islands. But Jakarta is the capital of a much bigger country, so of course it will have more "tourists." But dont lie to yourself and act like those tourists actually come to Jakarta just to visit Jakarta. There's nothing to see in Jakarta. Here's the Jakarta experience in a nutshell:


Driving around (stuck in traffic) looking at skyscrapers. And then maybe they'll go into a mall and spend their whole day there



You only wish you could have areas like this, where people actually get out of their cars and enjoy the city




^Thats the difference between an area built for cars and an area built for people.


Also, please post a source that actually has the numbers. Because your source took me to a page with no information.


You both sound like these people


Foreigners make up a whopping 0.06% of the workforce in Indonesia, and just 0.16% in the Philippines. You're paranoid about a few foreigners living and working in your country? The point wasn't about workers, it was about people actually coming to the country and making a life for themselves. Despite all the problems, more foreigners would rather do that in the Philippines than in Indonesia. Foreigners visiting for a few days and staying on an island resort doesnt really give you an idea if they actually prefer the country. Foreigners actually living an working in the country shows that they prefer the country.
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Old 01-19-2019, 11:22 AM
 
392 posts, read 102,946 times
Reputation: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Landove View Post
What's next? Number of lizard percapita? or number of president percapita?
I know what you are doing there, honey. Playing "percapita" card as your advantage to look somehow better than Indonesia in your imagination. Just admit.

Per capita matters in almost all rankings. Indonesia is a much larger country with a much larger population. So you're naturally supposed to get more of everything (unless something is wrong). And you want to compare yourselves with the Philippines? Even though it's much smaller in every way?


Vietnam is almost the same land area and population as the Philippines, so I have no issues comparing both countries in raw numbers. They get a lot more tourists, both per capita and in raw numbers. Nothing wrong with admitting that. But their GDP and GNI per capita is lower and their HDI is lower. When you compare IHDI (which is HDI adjusted for inequality) then they're at the exact same level as the Philippines. So Vietnam and the Philippines have a comparable quality of life.

Indonesia ranks lower than the Philippines in both HDI and IHDI rankings.


With other aspects we've discussed:


-Indonesia has more tourists in raw numbers, but the Philippines wins in more tourists per capita. Indonesia is one of the least-touristed countries on earth, right up there with Papua New Guinea.

-Jakarta has more tourists in terms of overall numbers and per capita. 3.5 million compared to 1.3 million. Can you please post the source with the numbers?

-The Philippines has more foreigners living and working in the country, in raw numbers and per capita.

-Something not mentioned yet. Jakarta has a lower crime rate, even before the drug war started in Manila. Manila doesnt have the crime rate of Latin American cities or even a lot of American cities (yet), but it's still has a lot more crime than Jakarta.

-Jakarta has an airport that is ranked higher.

-Jakarta has more train lines. By the end of this year, Jakarta will have 9 lines: 6 commuter, 1 MRT, 1 LRT, 1 line servicing the airport. Manila will have 5 lines this year: 2 MRT, 2 LRT, 1 commuter. Manila also has a river ferry with 12 stations.

-Jakarta has more and bigger highways. Jakarta also has a more efficient bus system.

-Manila has less traffic congestion, with commuters spending slightly less time in traffic.

-Manila is more walkable.

-Jakarta has more cars.

-Manila has more skyscrapers (buildings taller than 100m). Metro Manila has 233, Jakarta has 165. This is according to Emporis.com. Manila has 79 skyscrapers currently under-construction, while Jakarta has 21 skyscrapers under-construction. These numbers dont include planned skyscrapers that havent started construction yet.

-Manila has more open green/park space. 13% compared to 9% in Jakarta.

-Manila is ranked 137, while Jakarta is ranked 142 on Mecer's 2018 quality of living survey.

Last edited by manolopo; 01-19-2019 at 12:35 PM..
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