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Old 11-07-2017, 12:47 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
78,673 posts, read 70,531,500 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iron_stick View Post
Calls for Tibetan independence and the end of Chinese occupation used to be all over the place in the 90's, early 2000's. Many concerts were made to advocate for Free Tibet, bands like RATM, Pearl Jam, Radiohead publicly adopted the Tibetan cause. However, it seems like I haven't heard about Free Tibet in a while. Were the Chinese authorities successful at silencing all the critics?
The Tibetan gov't gave up. They had their last negotiation session with China a few years ago, and it became clear that persuading the Chinese was hopeless. They no longer have a team of lawyers at the UN Human Rights Council sessions lobbying other countries to support resolutions on Tibet, and so forth.

Whether that has a bearing on your question (it seems to, but IDK for sure) isn't clear. The Tibetan Independence movement was largely a youth movement, and had different goals than the CTA, the gov't-in-exile. I think their organizing may have been eclipsed by the self-immolation crisis in Tibet and China.
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Old 11-07-2017, 12:49 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
All discussions go full circle, if Chiang Kai-shek had won Tibet would be free today and people could google whatever they want.
What? Why do you say this? The KMT considered Tibet to be part of China, too. We'll never know what they would have done, if the revolution hadn't happened. But it's unlikely they would have allowed Tibet to be truly independent. There would have been no "Cultural Revolution" and no "Great Leap Forward", that's for sure. There may have been some form of local autonomy, as had been the case before. But Tibet most likely wouldn't be fully independent if the KMT had retained control of the country.
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Old 11-07-2017, 12:56 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeinChina View Post
Didn't the Mainland gov't kidnap the young person who was suppose to be the next Dalai Lama?


Yeah, its not trendy enough these days to support Tibet. Hollywood has enough to deal with these days.....lol
No, you're thinking of the Panchen Lama. They now have a fake Panchen Lama. They feel that's important, because traditionally, the Panchen Lama has helped identify the next DL.
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Old 11-07-2017, 01:00 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iron_stick View Post
Had China stayed a Japanese colony, maybe they would have fared better?
lol This is what some Native Siberians say, "Too bad we didn't surrender to Japan when we had the chance". The Japanese were kind to the Altaic peoples in the Russian Far East, because they regarded them as cousins. That probably wouldn't have applied to Tibetans, who are generally regarded as being a Sinitic people, with a Sinitic language, though the demographic picture isn't that simple. Tibetan nomads have significant Indo-European admixture and probably some Altaic, as well, and their language has an Altaic grammatical structure.

Whatever the case, I wouldn't assume the Japanese would have been good to them. Look at how the Japanese have treated the Ainu.
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Old 11-07-2017, 01:01 PM
 
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some people seem to think Tibet was stolen by the communist party in 1950. This is the Chinese map in 1850 and 1350.


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Old 11-07-2017, 01:04 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
some people seem to think Tibet was stolen by the communist party in 1950. This is the Chinese map in 1850 and 1350.

The second map is actually a map of Greater Mongolia, and the first map shows the expanded boundaries of Manchuria, as China had been conquered by the Manchus hundreds of years prior. The Mongols had a reciprocal relationship with Tibet.
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Old 11-07-2017, 01:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
The second map is actually a map of Greater Mongolia, and the first map shows the expanded boundaries of Manchuria, as China had been conquered by the Manchus hundreds of years prior. The Mongols had a reciprocal relationship with Tibet.
yes, neither was a Han dynasty, but both the Manchu and Mongolians are Chinese ethnicities.

The first is not greater Mongolia, but the Yuan China was one of four kingdoms under the Mongols. Both were China, which doesn't necessarily have to be ruled by the Hans.

The point is, Tibet was never really "free", so unsure where the idea of free Tibet come from. Even during the Tang Dynasty, Tibet was not free.

In today's geopolitics, Tibet has zero chance to be "free". Even if China gives it up, India will snatch it right away. And China will never give it up.

So they can have all the free Tibet movement they want, the UN can vote whichever way it wants, Tibet is not going to secede. That will not change. (plus without China, Tibetan's lives will be a lot worse off).
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Old 11-07-2017, 02:17 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
The issue is not about where I want the gold to be. It is about why the hell would Dalai Lama has so much gold in the first place.

OK, you can say the PRC "invaded" Tibet (ignoring the fact that Tibet was incorporated into China centuries ago), but tell me whether the lives of Tibetan people were better or worse after the "invasion"? Don't forget before the invasion, 90% of Tibetans are slaves, didn't have any personal freedom and were considered properties of their owns. And you prefer Tibet remain a serfdom like that under Dalai Lama? Really?

Destroy buddhism? Seriously? You talk as if Dalai Lama is the protector of Buddhism. Where in Buddihism does it allow a person to own dozens of, if not hundreds of slaves, forcing them to work for you while not enjoying any freedom or human rights? He is a "kind man"? Maybe for you, but not for the slaves under his ruling. That is the vast majority of Tibet.

He needed money to survive... who the hell needs 5 tons of gold to survive?

I misconstrued the slave statement? It is part of the Tibet culture? OMG... It was also an American culture to have slaves prior to 1865, why not keep it?

"In 1957, the Chinese leaders decided to end slavery in Tibet. Then, only about 5 percent of the Tibetans were monks or nuns, or belonged to the small noble class or free nomadic hunting tribes. The rest were slaves who had to toil to feed the non-productive elite of the population. That's why the monasteries, the house of the elites, saw the abolition of slavery as a catastrophe."

It is not as bad as slave labour in China? ok...whatever slave labour exists in China, those people have all the personal freedom, can quit the job any time they want, and their children don't have to be slaves. Do you have ANY idea of what you are talking about? You can be anti-China as much as you want, but at least talk some senses and have some facts ready. OK, here is another reading for you. You seem to be completely ignorant of China's history as well as the present. (it is written by a Finnish journalist)

The truth about Tibet and Dalai Lama - Opinion - Chinadaily.com.cn

If you don't come back to your senses, then don't bother replying, because apparently your agenda i set and facts are irrelevant to you.
Ok, I don’t have an agenda and I’m trying to listen to the points you’re giving. I agree with some of what you said but let me express my understanding of the situation this way (I promise I’m not just trying to blindly bash China, i know the cheap labor situation has improved a lot).

Firstly it is worth noting that Tibet wasn’t implemented into China until the Qing dynasty so the two regions do have distinct and separate cultures.

Number 2 the Dalai Lama (the current one) was very young at the time of the revolt and only understood what he was taught, he is a different man now. Furthermore he does NOT want Tibet to separate from China, only promotes more autonomy and less military control of the region. As for your points on the gold and slave here is what I have to say.

In terms of the gold I agree in principle it was not great to have so much in the hands of one man but the Dalai Lama was (most of the time) the political leader of Tibet and his control endowed him with much wealth and symbolic extravagance (much like a Chinese Emperor). The current Dalai Lama was born into such possessions and being from the west I know organized religions tend to have expensive artworks, etc. in their churches and control (just look at the Vatican and the Pope). You may not like that but I feel personally there is literary significance to this. Equality is not everything and life is unfair, religions with lots of gold and giant expensive statues may seem hypocritical but the inequality it creates with poor people builds story and character around our societies. If you just have a secular government with society only trying to help people in the most effective way then you wouldn’t get the amazing literature such as war and piece (or Dream of the red Chamber in China’s case). The world would be filled with unitary commie blocks that would depress the mind and remove motivation, pursuit, and survival from human life. Not all pain is bad, a life without it would be very heartless.

Returning to the current Dalai Lama he was young when he escaped and seeing all the dead Tibetan fighters armed by the CIA has changed him as a person. He is a good man today and I understand he disagrees with the PRC political (and I honestly don’t know who is right) and has done a lot of good around the world. Also I feel it was wrong for the Chinese government to kidnap the kid who was meant to replace him, I think we can agree that was not the right thing to do.

Slavery is wrong but Central Asia at the time was a century behind the rest of the world and Slavery was a part of their culture. It was good of the Chinese freeing them but artificially evolving a nation is not always the right thing to do. Tibet has lost a lot of their potential had they been allowed to grow and evolve outside of strict communist control.

As for the rest I think you right and you obviously know what you’re talking about. Nonetheless I disagree with the communist party’s treatment of Tibet and the Dalai Lama even if they mean well, you can disagree obviously.

I would like to add that I hope you do respond because it’s interesting hearing the Chinese perspective even if I don’t agree with the specific points of said perspective.
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Old 11-07-2017, 04:59 PM
 
252 posts, read 100,657 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
lol This is what some Native Siberians say, "Too bad we didn't surrender to Japan when we had the chance". The Japanese were kind to the Altaic peoples in the Russian Far East, because they regarded them as cousins. That probably wouldn't have applied to Tibetans, who are generally regarded as being a Sinitic people, with a Sinitic language, though the demographic picture isn't that simple. Tibetan nomads have significant Indo-European admixture and probably some Altaic, as well, and their language has an Altaic grammatical structure.

Whatever the case, I wouldn't assume the Japanese would have been good to them. Look at how the Japanese have treated the Ainu.
Thanks for sharing the knowledge.

I have a question. Can we assume that the Tibetans today are descendants of the 'Upper Mongols' from the Khoshut Khanate (eventually obliterated by the Oirat Mongols / Dzungar Khanate and much later the Qing.
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Old 11-07-2017, 05:40 PM
 
Location: Big Bayou
721 posts, read 299,391 times
Reputation: 988
The Chinese have engaged in what is legally considered a war crime: change of demographic. They have moved millions of Chinese into Tibet and used their people to control the situation.
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