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Old 11-07-2017, 05:54 PM
 
6,725 posts, read 6,599,126 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zambon View Post
The Chinese have engaged in what is legally considered a war crime: change of demographic. They have moved millions of Chinese into Tibet and used their people to control the situation.
NO. In fact there is no government-arranged immigration to Tibet, except for some military forces etc.

All the businessmen went there by themselves and it started in the 1980s only. Tibet is not suitable for farming and mining, so nobody goes there for these purposes. Tibet only has 3 million residents (including migrants) in total. It is absurd to say China moves "millions" of people there.

Of course, many construction workers, medical professionals and teachers are from other parts of China. This is far from a "crime". You are insulting them for their sacrifices.
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Old 11-07-2017, 07:06 PM
 
410 posts, read 182,948 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
yes, neither was a Han dynasty, but both the Manchu and Mongolians are Chinese ethnicities.

The first is not greater Mongolia, but the Yuan China was one of four kingdoms under the Mongols. Both were China, which doesn't necessarily have to be ruled by the Hans.

The point is, Tibet was never really "free", so unsure where the idea of free Tibet come from. Even during the Tang Dynasty, Tibet was not free.

In today's geopolitics, Tibet has zero chance to be "free". Even if China gives it up, India will snatch it right away. And China will never give it up.

So they can have all the free Tibet movement they want, the UN can vote whichever way it wants, Tibet is not going to secede. That will not change. (plus without China, Tibetan's lives will be a lot worse off).
If Tibet was never a free state, why did China have to invade it then? Those old maps means little. Parts of China such as Macau and Hong Kong were ruled by foreign powers for centuries, still the Chinese government demanded them back, regardless of the treaties granting those territories eternally to Portugal and England. Are Tibetans better of now? TBH, Africans were economically better of under European rule. Still they had to endure the humiliation to ruled by outsiders on their own land.
China annexed Tibet simply because it could do it easily. It is what it is, but no need to try to rationalize it. In that sense, China is no better than the US nor the imperialistic West.
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Old 11-07-2017, 07:19 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Canada
1,479 posts, read 1,220,860 times
Reputation: 631
Quote:
Originally Posted by iron_stick View Post
If Tibet was never a free state, why did China have to invade it then? Those old maps means little. Parts of China such as Macau and Hong Kong were ruled by foreign powers for centuries, still the Chinese government demanded them back, regardless of the treaties granting those territories eternally to Portugal and England. Are Tibetans better of now? TBH, Africans were economically better of under European rule. Still they had to endure the humiliation to ruled by outsiders on their own land.
China annexed Tibet simply because it could do it easily. It is what it is, but no need to try to rationalize it. In that sense, China is no better than the US nor the imperialistic West.

it was not an Invasion.

Britain twice tried to separate Tibet from China

British invasions probed as root cause of Tibetan separatism


Macau and Hong Kong were stolen by Foreign powers from China

and the KMT/ Republic of China always view Tibet as part of china old maps of the KMT/ROC show Tibet as part of China


The Constitution of the Republic of China 1946 | US-China Institute

Article 26

3. The number of Delegates to be elected from Tibet shall be prescribed by law.


Article 64
(1) Members of the Legislative Yuan shall be elected in accordance with the following provisions:

3. Those to be elected from Tibet.


Article 91
The Control Yuan shall be composed of Members to be elected by Provincial and Municipal Councils, the local Councils of Mongolia and Tibet, and Chinese citizens residing abroad. Their quotas shall be allotted according to the following provisions:

4. Eight Members for Tibet

Article 120
The system of self-government in Tibet shall be safeguarded.
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Old 11-07-2017, 08:16 PM
 
117 posts, read 64,160 times
Reputation: 119
Almost all nations were founded on lands stolen from others. Unless your nation has disbanded and returned all the lands back to rightful original inhalants, and you go back to wherever your ancestors came from, you can't really criticize others for doing the same thing.

What make you stand tall above them? That will make you a hypocrite. It is like you being a thief catching another thief in action calling him immoral. All free Tibet baby boomers generation crowds are bunch of hypocrites and losers. I can't really stand that generation.
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Old 11-07-2017, 08:35 PM
 
Location: Fort Collins, USA
1,473 posts, read 2,367,422 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
some people seem to think Tibet was stolen by the communist party in 1950. This is the Chinese map in 1850 and 1350.

Strange logic. You use maps of when Mongolians and Manchus controlled both China and Tibet to prove that Tibet has always been part of China. Should we also assume that China still belongs to Mongolia because there is a map that shows this once being the case? Maybe you are onto something though: if one country wants to claim another, they should just draw a map to that effect and that will settle the issue once and for all. The country with the best cartographers wins!
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Old 11-08-2017, 11:32 AM
 
1,455 posts, read 2,861,698 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orbiter View Post
Thanks for sharing the knowledge.

I have a question. Can we assume that the Tibetans today are descendants of the 'Upper Mongols' from the Khoshut Khanate (eventually obliterated by the Oirat Mongols / Dzungar Khanate and much later the Qing.
The Khoshuts moved east to Amdo and south to northern Tibet where they became Tibetanized.
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Old 11-08-2017, 01:56 PM
 
909 posts, read 548,594 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
some people seem to think Tibet was stolen by the communist party in 1950. This is the Chinese map in 1850 and 1350.

There are problems with your logic.
First, Mongolians can use the Yuan map to show that China should be a part of Mongolia.
Second, it ignores the Ming Dynasty and the first few decades of the Qing dynasty. Why should China get to argue that the historic map that shows the greatest extent is the "correct" one? No one is making the same claims for the Spanish or British Empires.
Third, there is a difference between sovereignty and suzerainty. Tibet for most of the Qing Dynasty was a tributary state like Vietnam and Korea. Why isn't China trying to claim the other states?

That said, I don't necessarily think China's "claim of ownership" is weaker than Russia's on Crimea, Britain's on Northern Ireland or Spain's on Catalonia. I just think pulling out history maps to make an argument makes you looks ridiculous.
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Old 11-08-2017, 04:08 PM
 
252 posts, read 100,330 times
Reputation: 287
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ2MDdude View Post
The Khoshuts moved east to Amdo and south to northern Tibet where they became Tibetanized.
Great stuff there, thanks.

So the Khoshuts moved east, eh! The Oirats moved west and became Russified.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYAp0fyEAZ0
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Old 11-08-2017, 05:39 PM
 
1,455 posts, read 2,861,698 times
Reputation: 1127
Quote:
Originally Posted by orbiter View Post
Great stuff there, thanks.

So the Khoshuts moved east, eh! The Oirats moved west and became Russified.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYAp0fyEAZ0
Actually, the majority of the Dorbets and Torghuts moved west where their descendants became known today as Kalmyks. The fourth major Oirat tribe, the Choros, formed the Dzungar Khanate.
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Old 11-08-2017, 06:03 PM
 
Location: Big Bayou
721 posts, read 298,570 times
Reputation: 988
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
NO. In fact there is no government-arranged immigration to Tibet, except for some military forces etc.

All the businessmen went there by themselves and it started in the 1980s only. Tibet is not suitable for farming and mining, so nobody goes there for these purposes. Tibet only has 3 million residents (including migrants) in total. It is absurd to say China moves "millions" of people there.

Of course, many construction workers, medical professionals and teachers are from other parts of China. This is far from a "crime". You are insulting them for their sacrifices.
Chinese businesses in the 80s were pretty much all state run, so to say that the businessmen acted "by themselves" is factually incorrect. The number of Han Chinese going there has increased since then as well. Going where you are not wanted, particularly en mass is not a sacrifice. I'm not insulting anyone. The Chinese have crushed Tibetan culture and have basically taken over Tibet.
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