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Old 11-17-2017, 10:08 AM
 
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That place is in an active earthquake zone. In 2014 a fire also damaged a dozen buildings. It is way too dangerous to keep it that way.


Just go there and see. It is open to tourists.
Don't just cite from "Human Rights Watch" who has made a lot of false accusations..
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Old 11-17-2017, 12:49 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
That place is in an active earthquake zone. In 2014 a fire also damaged a dozen buildings. It is way too dangerous to keep it that way.


Just go there and see. It is open to tourists.
Don't just cite from "Human Rights Watch" who has made a lot of false accusations..
I hope you’re right because then I’d feel these cultural monuments won’t be destroyed by the government. But nonetheless the CCP has nearly destroyed the three great Buddhist monestaries in Tibet which have all since moved to India. This hollowing of Tibet AND Chinese culture in favor of their “socialist values” is incredibly depressing.
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Old 11-17-2017, 07:55 PM
 
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If Imperial Japan won the Sino-Japanese War (and America didn't interfere or impose the oil embargo), Tibet would be free and the PRC and North Korea would not exist. I wonder how Westerners feel about this considering they constantly whine about how the awful PRC and North Korea are.
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Old 11-17-2017, 08:29 PM
 
Location: Earth
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Originally Posted by X14Freak View Post
If Imperial Japan won the Sino-Japanese War (and America didn't interfere or impose the oil embargo), Tibet would be free and the PRC and North Korea would not exist. I wonder how Westerners feel about this considering they constantly whine about how the awful PRC and North Korea are.
hm...hard to say. the Japanese are the british of asia. For all of japan's history, they have never had good relations in china. Even though japan is smaller, they do not care how big china is. They tried to invade china many times through korea. toyotomi hideyoshi said the heart of china is through korea.

I think Japan is the greater enemy than red china. THe chinese can be divided over their love for money and they are still clannish within. THe japan fought like beasts in ww2. THey raped wholesale. America keeps japan on a leash and rightfully so. A nuclear armed japan would be even more dangerous than north korea. THe japanese are tigers. A dragon should not poke a tiger in eye like china is trying to do.

I'd rather see china divided into 3 kingdoms with an independent democratic hong kong and a free tibet. It makes the area much more manageable from a western perspective. Bottelli would go ape poop reading that. However, red china may keep the uighers from going jihad with their brutal suppression. Jihadists are worse than communists.

Trump is literally handing asia and the world to china. Although southeast asian countries and other countries of the indo-pacific region might band together to contain a nationalist red china.
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Old 11-17-2017, 08:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Dangerous-Boy View Post
hm...hard to say. the Japanese are the british of asia. For all of japan's history, they have never had good relations in china. Even though japan is smaller, they do not care how big china is. They tried to invade china many times through korea. toyotomi hideyoshi said the heart of china is through korea.

I think Japan is the greater enemy than red china. THe chinese can be divided over their love for money and they are still clannish within. THe japan fought like beasts in ww2. THey raped wholesale. America keeps japan on a leash and rightfully so. A nuclear armed japan would be even more dangerous than north korea. THe japanese are tigers. A dragon should not poke a tiger in eye like china is trying to do.

I'd rather see china divided into 3 kingdoms with an independent democratic hong kong and a free tibet. It makes the area much more manageable from a western perspective. Bottelli would go ape poop reading that. However, red china may keep the uighers from going jihad with their brutal suppression. Jihadists are worse than communists.

Trump is literally handing asia and the world to china. Although southeast asian countries and other countries of the indo-pacific region might band together to contain a nationalist red china.
Southeast Asian countries are all incredibly weak and a significant portion of their economies are in Chinese hands (both mainland Chinese and ethnic Chinese citizens). China being split in three is pretty much impossible since the Han make up 90% of the population of China and they all agree that a unified China is necessary. Almost all Chinese remember what happened when the country was broken into defacto independent states during the Warlord era in the 20s and 30s. As much as the West hates to admit it, the majority of Chinese citizens approved of what happened in Tiananmen Square (even Lee Kuan Yew - not a Communist by any mean approved of it) and would also support the use of force against Hong Kong if necessary.
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Old 11-17-2017, 11:14 PM
 
Location: Earth
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Originally Posted by X14Freak View Post
Southeast Asian countries are all incredibly weak and a significant portion of their economies are in Chinese hands (both mainland Chinese and ethnic Chinese citizens). China being split in three is pretty much impossible since the Han make up 90% of the population of China and they all agree that a unified China is necessary. Almost all Chinese remember what happened when the country was broken into defacto independent states during the Warlord era in the 20s and 30s. As much as the West hates to admit it, the majority of Chinese citizens approved of what happened in Tiananmen Square (even Lee Kuan Yew - not a Communist by any mean approved of it) and would also support the use of force against Hong Kong if necessary.
The empire, long divided, must unite; long united, must divide

It was actually javanese that pushed back the yuan dynasty when they tried to invade. The majority of chinese accepted tienanmen since the communists promised better living standard and wealth instead of freedom which they have delivered on far. However, if the growth stops, the CCP will have a yellow turban rebellion of 1 billion unemployed middle class. No army can control that.
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Old 11-18-2017, 11:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by X14Freak View Post
As much as the West hates to admit it, the majority of Chinese citizens approved of what happened in Tiananmen Square (even Lee Kuan Yew - not a Communist by any mean approved of it) and would also support the use of force against Hong Kong if necessary.
Yes. Let' see the alternative scenario regarding Tiananmen square:

the revolt succeeded. CCP stepped down and China became "democratic". OK, do we honestly think in that case the US will leave China alone to elect its own president? No, like it did in so many countries, it will plant the candidate the US wants. Yea, look at how it worked wonderfully in Afghanistan and Iraq. China will be "democratic", "free", but will be in massive chaos. It would be poorer than India today, let alone pulling 600m people out of poverty and becoming a leader in technology and trade.

But it ceases to be "communist", who cares if the 1.4b chinese live under $2 or $3 a day? The west will be happy. Dangerousboy will be happy. They don't care about Chinese people's well-being. They just want China to be weak, poor and dominated without ever being able to challenge the west.

As to HK, if the people really independence, then China can simply build a wall around it, stop trading with it completely and sanction any country that does business with it, just like what the US does to Cuba. I would love to see how prosperous HK can remain.

Regarding Tibet, even the Tibetans don't want independence. They know better than anyone they are better off under China, just like French Guiana shows no interest in leaving France. I don't know why westerners care about it so much. I think it is more about the wish to weaken China than really caring about freedom of Tibetans.

If HK or Taiwan declares independence, the vast majority of the Chinese will support using force. And the government will have no choice but to go to war, even it doesn't want to. The CCP will be overthrown if it doesn't. I myself don't necessarily support a war. I don't mind Taiwan independence. For HK, like I said, high level of sanction/embargo will do. There will be economic cost for China of course, but for HK, it is a matter of survival (literally feeding themselves and having access to water and electricity).
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Old 11-18-2017, 12:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Yes. Let' see the alternative scenario regarding Tiananmen square:

the revolt succeeded. CCP stepped down and China became "democratic". OK, do we honestly think in that case the US will leave China alone to elect its own president? No, like it did in so many countries, it will plant the candidate the US wants. Yea, look at how it worked wonderfully in Afghanistan and Iraq. China will be "democratic", "free", but will be in massive chaos. It would be poorer than India today, let alone pulling 600m people out of poverty and becoming a leader in technology and trade.

But it ceases to be "communist", who cares if the 1.4b chinese live under $2 or $3 a day? The west will be happy. Dangerousboy will be happy. They don't care about Chinese people's well-being. They just want China to be weak, poor and dominated without ever being able to challenge the west.

As to HK, if the people really independence, then China can simply build a wall around it, stop trading with it completely and sanction any country that does business with it, just like what the US does to Cuba. I would love to see how prosperous HK can remain.

Regarding Tibet, even the Tibetans don't want independence. They know better than anyone they are better off under China, just like French Guiana shows no interest in leaving France. I don't know why westerners care about it so much. I think it is more about the wish to weaken China than really caring about freedom of Tibetans.

If HK or Taiwan declares independence, the vast majority of the Chinese will support using force. And the government will have no choice but to go to war, even it doesn't want to. The CCP will be overthrown if it doesn't. I myself don't necessarily support a war. I don't mind Taiwan independence. For HK, like I said, high level of sanction/embargo will do. There will be economic cost for China of course, but for HK, it is a matter of survival (literally feeding themselves and having access to water and electricity).
If Tibetans were granted independence, they would be in a worse situation since the CCP would bribe all their leaders to do what they want them to do. Also, Tibet is completely landlocked and road connections to their friendliest ally (India) are extremely difficult to build and maintain. Essentially all of Tibet's trade would have to done through China and the Chinese would be able to starve the Tibetans to death by embargoing the country if Tibet did something the Chinese didn't like. Almost all of the businesses in Tibet are owned by Han Chinese and they would also bribe or cajole the Tibetan government to take a pro-Chinese stance. Essentially, you are creating another Kyrgyzstan or Tajikstan by granting Tibet independence.
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Old 11-18-2017, 04:20 PM
 
Location: Earth
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Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
But it ceases to be "communist", who cares if the 1.4b chinese live under $2 or $3 a day? The west will be happy. Dangerousboy will be happy. They don't care about Chinese people's well-being. They just want China to be weak, poor and dominated without ever being able to challenge the west.
You're right. I only care about wushu, bao, Sichuan cuisine, and the classics. Additionally, just to stick it to you, the US should annex canada and trump should take away your healthcare and heavily tax you...specifically you and have the police profile you. He will make Canada great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by X14Freak View Post
If Tibetans were granted independence, they would be in a worse situation since the CCP would bribe all their leaders to do what they want them to do. Also, Tibet is completely landlocked and road connections to their friendliest ally (India) are extremely difficult to build and maintain. Essentially all of Tibet's trade would have to done through China and the Chinese would be able to starve the Tibetans to death by embargoing the country if Tibet did something the Chinese didn't like. Almost all of the businesses in Tibet are owned by Han Chinese and they would also bribe or cajole the Tibetan government to take a pro-Chinese stance. Essentially, you are creating another Kyrgyzstan or Tajikstan by granting Tibet independence.
That sounds like a like a good compromise
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Old 11-18-2017, 05:01 PM
 
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I seriously doubt that the smart "cookies" Hans could be easily lured to Tibet where the economy is as big as that of Afghanistan, where as the cities of Shanghai, Beijing and Quangzhou are enjoying GDP comparable to that of the Philippines, UAE and Switzerland respectively.

Looking at this map, the Tibetans also live in neighboring provinces such as Qinghai, Sichuan and Yunan.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...AR-TAP-TAC.png
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