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Old 03-23-2018, 07:51 AM
 
4,678 posts, read 3,607,316 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkylarkPhotoBooth View Post
Ha. Good point! And North Koreans are probably the only people in the whole region whose human rights situation would actually improve if they were ruled by Beijing, so it could even be seen as a humanitarian cause!

Of course, China kind of likes having NK as a buffer between its own border and the large US military presence in SK. They're probably not going to give that up on purpose any time soon.
What does human rights have anything to do with territorial integrity or security? China will keep the NK around as a bargaining chip. Nothing more.
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Old 03-23-2018, 11:45 AM
 
1,001 posts, read 451,643 times
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Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
BS, you can go do some research on the Potsdam Declaration and the attending articles of surrender that Imperial Japan and the ROC signed at the end of WWII.
That would be the end of WW2 thing to which I was referring. You left out the thing that happened about 5 years later. I stand by my statement that Taiwan and China have been under the same government for about 5 of the last 123 years. (Also, as you correctly note, that government wasn't even the PRC. If you really want to reunify Taiwan and China-- and good luck with that if you do-- it should at least be under the government they were under when they were last unified, which isn't the one that's been in Beijing for 70 years-- it's the one in Taipei.)
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Old 03-23-2018, 11:53 AM
 
1,001 posts, read 451,643 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
What does human rights have anything to do with territorial integrity or security?
I can't tell if you're spectrum-y or being willfully obtuse, but I think it's probably clear to everyone else that we were joking. Nobody thinks China is going to invade NK anytime soon. That being said, the truth part of the joke was that because North Korea is arguably the one eastern neighbor of China with a worse human rights record than China, it would be their one chance to pull of an invasion that could potentially still make them look like the good guys. (As opposed to invading a functioning independent democracy with greater respect for human rights, which would generally be a poor global PR move.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
China will keep the NK around as a bargaining chip. Nothing more.
If by "nothing more" you really mean "And even more importantly as a buffer to prevent the US military in South Korea from being on its border," then yes, you are correct.
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Old 03-23-2018, 12:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkylarkPhotoBooth View Post
That would be the end of WW2 thing to which I was referring. You left out the thing that happened about 5 years later. I stand by my statement that Taiwan and China have been under the same government for about 5 of the last 123 years. (Also, as you correctly note, that government wasn't even the PRC. If you really want to reunify Taiwan and China-- and good luck with that if you do-- it should at least be under the government they were under when they were last unified, which isn't the one that's been in Beijing for 70 years-- it's the one in Taipei.)
That's BS. Again, the PRC is happy with the current situation where taiwan is ROC. If that changed, or if a US warship docks in taiwan, then that will constitute the death of the ROC and the PRC will invade. It's really quite simple.

In a morbid sort of way, it would be good for the US to goad China into resolving the taiwan problem. The reason the US has this taiwan card to play is because the weak kneed Chinese leaders are too cowardly to do what has to be done. Maybe trump will be the American who will help reunite Mainland China with taiwan island. Go Chump!

Last edited by pennyone; 03-23-2018 at 12:18 PM..
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Old 03-23-2018, 12:11 PM
 
4,678 posts, read 3,607,316 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkylarkPhotoBooth View Post
I can't tell if you're spectrum-y or being willfully obtuse, but I think it's probably clear to everyone else that we were joking. Nobody thinks China is going to invade NK anytime soon. That being said, the truth part of the joke was that because North Korea is arguably the one eastern neighbor of China with a worse human rights record than China, it would be their one chance to pull of an invasion that could potentially still make them look like the good guys. (As opposed to invading a functioning independent democracy with greater respect for human rights, which would generally be a poor global PR move.)



If by "nothing more" you really mean "And even more importantly as a buffer to prevent the US military in South Korea from being on its border," then yes, you are correct.
Thanks for giving me your affirmation....but I didnt remember asking for it.

You clearly can't get your mind wrapped around this idea of China vs the PRC and the ROC. Taiwan as an island was ceded to japan, and it was returned to China, which was under the ROC at the time. So what if it's only 5 years, or 2, or 6 months? It's still Chinese territory. If the red line isn't crossed, taiwan can remain under the ROC, just like Kinman, penghu and taiping are currently under the ROC government. But if the red line is crossed, then the PRC will essentially finish the Chinese civil war. And if the US or Japan choose to get themselves involved, then so be it. Beijing will have no choice but to go ahead. If Japan wishes to get bombed, or if the US wishes to conduct a war with another nuke power (which means that there will be no losers, just a nuke exchange at the end), then there is very little anyone can do about it.

The BS about how China has never ruled taiwan is so old and tired and very simplistic. It shows a lack of historical understanding of Chinese history.
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Old 03-23-2018, 03:58 PM
 
Location: Boston, MA
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Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
Yes, that's right. The Chinese military hasn't changed since 1979....LOL Keep dreaming, ok.
You've got some bitter pill to swallow, Penny. Where in any of my posts did I say the Chinese military hasn't changed since 1979? It just so happens they haven't exercised a foreign invasion since 1979. Mainland China has acquired a ton of modern Russian aircraft and artillery over the years and have even developed their own weaponry including their own super-powerful nuclear weapons. On top of that the PRC government has one of the most sophisticated secret services in the world, ample money to spend, and (because of their repressive measures), no opposition from their people. The moment the PLA is ordered to march, they march. All of that still is not full proof that they can successfully invade Taiwan without a glitch however.

You seem to be the one actually wishing for China to go to war. Well then so be it, maybe YOUR dream will come true before this decade ends. Steve Bannon himself said it once, we've all been in peace for so long that we're due for a nasty conflict. Heck, why not fight World War III while we're at it, the PRC with all its military might and united population will win it all, the cowardly U.S. will be beaten into submission, everyone will adhere to Xi Jin Ping thought and forget the ROC and the Three People's Principles because it will be a footnote in history by then. The entire world will be dominated by two hegemons Russia and People's Republic of China only. The PRC seems to be so confident so why stop at it? I don't really want to argue with you but you don't seem to get the notion that history can repeat itself and those nations or world leaders that continuously make threats will eventually end up in no good end themselves. The PRC is powerful but it is not invincible. No nation is ever invincible, not even the US.
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Old 03-23-2018, 05:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Urban Peasant View Post
All of that still is not full proof that they can successfully invade Taiwan without a glitch however.
they cant though, china doesnt want a decimated taiwan to control... if they want it back, it needs to be intact which means no invasion

so yes, they could invade by force but they also cant...

its like the police blowing up the building with kidnappers to save the hostages, they might kill the kidnappers but they lose the reason they are there if the hostages die in the process, taiwan being the hostage between china and the us, pick which side is which though
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Old 03-23-2018, 07:45 PM
 
Location: Boston, MA
1,854 posts, read 3,416,822 times
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Originally Posted by MLSFan View Post
they cant though, china doesnt want a decimated taiwan to control... if they want it back, it needs to be intact which means no invasion

so yes, they could invade by force but they also cant...

its like the police blowing up the building with kidnappers to save the hostages, they might kill the kidnappers but they lose the reason they are there if the hostages die in the process, taiwan being the hostage between china and the us, pick which side is which though
Agreed, I know it's buried deep back a page or two but I made a similar argument to yours in a previous post that Mainland China is not guaranteed a full victory regardless of how powerful its military is. It's just that after centuries of repression under the hands of foreigners, a lot of Chinese have the notion that they have to feel superior at doing everything and being everything. Being number two is no longer good enough, being ever slightly imperfect is no longer good enough. To these dogmatic folks, it's not that China hasn't lost a war in the past, it's that it has lost too many wars in the past and now with a strongman like Xi at the helm, they are bent on showing the world both their pride and their prowess.

I always think back to the story of David and Goliath in the Old Testament though. Sure it may only be a tale but there may be some truth to it. How often does the big bully (right now it seems to be the PRC) who continuously brags and threatens the little one (the ROC) ultimately win the fight? Sometimes I'm not even sure if the PRC really wants to capture Taiwan, which is only one province after all, or just pick a fight with the US to show strength. Then again, I am not sure why Trump seemingly wants to provoke the PRC because that is just as arrogant a move. So who is David and who is Goliath here?
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Old 03-23-2018, 08:05 PM
 
Location: Earth
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If anyone has a read romance of the 3 kingdoms, you just have to wait a while until china descends into civil war again. Chinese generals are easy to bribe.
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Old 03-23-2018, 08:07 PM
 
10,058 posts, read 4,648,803 times
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Originally Posted by Dangerous-Boy View Post
If anyone has a read romance of the 3 kingdoms, you just have to wait a while until china descends into civil war again. Chinese generals are easy to bribe.
so are american ones, https://nypost.com/2011/07/24/hookers-booze-bribes/
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