U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Asia
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-29-2017, 12:07 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,776 posts, read 5,124,525 times
Reputation: 4566

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Hokkien is not nearly as moribund as most other Chinese languages. It's certainly not on some great rising trajectory, but its decline within Taiwan has certainly been not as dramatic since the 80s. The weird thing is to go back to Taiwan and realize that your younger relatives in Taipei now speak better Hokkien than they did several years ago. I don't think it'll be a great revival, but it's certainly not as bad as it was before. And yea, there's still a good chance it becomes a dead language within a few decades. I'm of the opinion that I don't want that, but that doesn't matter much.
They (by that I mean the ****y government) wouldn't even grant it official status, and the fact that there's no official script also severely hinders its survival. It's probably not as bad as before the 80s, but for languages on decline, if there's no strong bounce, it's eventual death.

Besides the awful Taiwanese tv shows aren't helping either. Only old people watch those.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-29-2017, 12:11 AM
 
102 posts, read 48,542 times
Reputation: 51
I know people born in western countries to parents from Hong Kong and they watch HK television and movies from childhood with their parents at home. This is the only main thing they have in common with people in Hong Kong. They have personalities like westerners and obvious cultural differences from people in HK.


In major chinese cities, there are gangsters speaking the same dialects forming groups and known variously by their province or region of origin. There are some companies owned by laoxiang boss hiring most staff from the same region speaking the same dialect in the major cities. People from the same region are called laoxiang in Mandarin. Many Chinese people like to hang out with laoxiang in the major cities, and some may still prefer laoxiang when dating or marrying. Dialects will still be used for a long time in the major cities among people from the same region.


When Republic of China ruled Shanghai, Shanghai's local identity was pretty strong and the whole modern Shanghai culture thing moved to HK when the PRC was established.

Last edited by HSrights; 12-29-2017 at 12:21 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-29-2017, 01:18 AM
 
6,726 posts, read 6,607,688 times
Reputation: 2386
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Chengdu and Chongqing speak a variant of standard Mandarin to some extent, but I still understand that local variant is dying. The local variant is a variant of Mandarin and they can still communicate with their accent within a state-backed language. Wu language is far enough from Mandarin that there is no such thing possible while most variants of Chengdu-Chongqing Mandarin is more or less intelligible to a standard Mandarin speaker--if you traveled through the regions, you'd recognize this pretty easily despite the accent. This is not very hard to understand. There is no dialect of Wu that is mutually intelligible with standard Mandarin-derived Chinese. This also still completely loses sight of your original assertion that somehow someone who is fluent in Shanghainese will have "50%" comprehension of someone speaking Suzhou dialect which is still a completely incorrect assertion.

I never argued that Wu and Mandarin-derived Chinese languages are not so different, so your tangent makes no sense in regards to the Wu language. Just realize you were wrong in that. Also realize it is very much a state-sponsored affair. What basically works out as a strongly accented Mandarin in practice (though not in its derivation) is still a different conversation from understanding or supporting different Chinese languages in practice. You are simply wrong in what you said about Suzhou dialect and you are still arguably wrong (and I'm arguing against you) about how state sponsorship affects the adoption rate of different Chinese languages from generation to generation. The different language families of Chinese as incubated by political differences for Cantonese and Min languages have real world examples. It is very much evident as such.

Why can't you simply admit the fact that Wu Chinese has a huge internal variation and people cannot communicate with each other fluently without Mandarin?

Can you teach physics in Suzhou dialect and make students from Shanghai and Hangzhou fully understand it? The answer is simply no way.

However, if you teach physics in Chengdu dialect, students from Chongqing and Guiyang understand it perfectly. This is the real difference.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-29-2017, 01:21 AM
 
6,726 posts, read 6,607,688 times
Reputation: 2386
If you search "上海人听得懂苏州话吗", you will find lots of discussions. Many (but not all) Shanghainese say "not really" or "very difficult".
This is an example:
Quote:
记得小的时候我和父母去上海玩。我爸问一个老人路,装了个逼,巴拉巴拉说了一通苏州话,那位老人一脸茫然, 甚至有点不耐烦,最终我爸还是用普通话问的路。我去上海坐飞机。然后突然想起来一件事情,就在机场里往家里 打电话。由于座机没有加区号,打到了上海人家里。我全程苏州话,结果对面老爷爷一直重复:『啊?啊?你啥人 ?啊?……』最后我用普通话解释我电话打错了。最后给苏州朋友一些忠告,不要觉得在上海讲苏州话很装逼很厉 害,首先一个人家听不太懂,再一个你会被当做乡巴佬。。。
https://www.zhihu.com/question/37681441/answer/81400553


This is my experience too. I personally asked people when I was in Shanghai.

Last edited by Bettafish; 12-29-2017 at 01:41 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-29-2017, 01:29 AM
 
6,726 posts, read 6,607,688 times
Reputation: 2386
Here is an interesting survey.
People are tested on dialects to calculate mutual intelligibility.
Attached Thumbnails
Shanghainese Demographics-41850828b4c529c355e930b344788f00.jpg  
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-29-2017, 08:54 AM
 
Location: In the heights
22,148 posts, read 23,668,851 times
Reputation: 11622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
Why can't you simply admit the fact that Wu Chinese has a huge internal variation and people cannot communicate with each other fluently without Mandarin?

Can you teach physics in Suzhou dialect and make students from Shanghai and Hangzhou fully understand it? The answer is simply no way.

However, if you teach physics in Chengdu dialect, students from Chongqing and Guiyang understand it perfectly. This is the real difference.
I don’t think you understand my previous posts. There’s no “admitting” that Wu languages have large internal variation—that’s simply a fact and one I've stated repeatedly. Someone who knows Wenzhou dialect cannot understand someone who is speaking Shanghainese. I’ve said this and similar things multiple times. What I disagreed with some flat out misinformation on your part. The Wu languages run a large continuum and in that Shanghainese and Suzhou dialect among a few other smaller regional variations are actually mutually intelligible. Not all Wu languages are, but many subregions within that branching language dialects which are usually geographically pretty close can share a high degree of similarity. You said something flat out false about someone speaking Shanghainese not understanding Suzhou dialect and it appears you are not capable of speaking either because that is something no one actually fluent in either would believe.

In your hypothetical, yes to Suzhou dialect being comprehensible to Shanghainese that you can teach or discuss fairly advanced topics—no, in regards to someone who speaks Hangzhou dialect.

I’m pretty sure I’ve written variations of the above repeatedly, but there must be something lost in translation if you’re asking this hypothetical.

As for your example--yea, the Shanghainese can be prickly asses and basically write off people speaking in Suzhou dialect as bumpkins and be rude when you speak it to them. Also, a lot of Shanghainese simply can't speak fluent Shanghainese with some not able to speak it at all. These both go a long way in describing that personal account.

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 12-29-2017 at 09:41 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-29-2017, 10:38 AM
 
Location: In the heights
22,148 posts, read 23,668,851 times
Reputation: 11622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
Here is an interesting survey.
People are tested on dialects to calculate mutual intelligibility.
Cool, cool.

Let me help this along by giving you a link to the actual paper that infographic is based off of.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-29-2017, 12:43 PM
 
6,726 posts, read 6,607,688 times
Reputation: 2386
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Cool, cool.

Let me help this along by giving you a link to the actual paper that infographic is based off of.
I did not read the whole paper but the intelligibility figures listed in Table 2 are all very low. Even Beijing-Beijing is just 83%?
Their method may not be the best.
Table 3 is the same as what I posted.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-29-2017, 02:05 PM
 
Location: In the heights
22,148 posts, read 23,668,851 times
Reputation: 11622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
I did not read the whole paper but the intelligibility figures listed in Table 2 are all very low. Even Beijing-Beijing is just 83%?
Their method may not be the best.
Table 3 is the same as what I posted.
Yes, Table 3 is the same as what you posted because this paper is where that infographic ultimately derived its information from.

If you did not read the whole paper, then maybe you don't understand what the methodology is or what those numbers actually represent. It's okay though, because you're going on just instinct which is why you can come up with random figures like fluent Shanghainese speakers understand 50% of someone speaking Suzhou dialect at best, LOL!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-29-2017, 05:45 PM
 
6,726 posts, read 6,607,688 times
Reputation: 2386
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Yes, Table 3 is the same as what you posted because this paper is where that infographic ultimately derived its information from.

If you did not read the whole paper, then maybe you don't understand what the methodology is or what those numbers actually represent. It's okay though, because you're going on just instinct which is why you can come up with random figures like fluent Shanghainese speakers understand 50% of someone speaking Suzhou dialect at best, LOL!
I did not read the whole paper but I read the part relevant to table 2, which is enough for my interest.

You seem to go personal easily. Lol I was just commenting on the paper, and I assume you are not the author. You don't even know my opinion on their method in details but start to attack.

I still believe ordinary Shanghainese do not understand Suzhou dialect well, no matter what you said. No need to get angry. You can't convince people when you have no data to support yourself. I can't convince you either. Life goes on.

Last edited by Bettafish; 12-29-2017 at 06:09 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Asia
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top