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Old 12-29-2017, 06:05 PM
 
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Another interesting survey. Not the same topic but relevant.
This is not a formal published article, so just for reference.
Attached Thumbnails
Shanghainese Demographics-v2-72390352c79d8b987e84114fe4a2f693_hd.jpg  
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Old 12-29-2017, 08:44 PM
 
Location: In the heights
22,132 posts, read 23,648,900 times
Reputation: 11616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
I did not read the whole paper but I read the part relevant to table 2, which is enough for my interest.

You seem to go personal easily. Lol I was just commenting on the paper, and I assume you are not the author. You don't even know my opinion on their method in details but start to attack.

I still believe ordinary Shanghainese do not understand Suzhou dialect well, no matter what you said. No need to get angry. You can't convince people when you have no data to support yourself. I can't convince you either. Life goes on.
It’s not an attack, it’s just illustrating how misinformed you are and how low a threshold you have for wanting to interject while not knowing what you’re talking about. Certainly there must be pros and cons to that kind of mentality, LOL!

You can try to find papers on arvix or such on mutual intelligibility or language derivation for Chinese languages and see what you’re saying is crap. You can even do a very basic wikipedia search as a start and follow its citations to the sources. You obviously can’t support something you made up, so I won’t put the burden of proof on you. You're of course not all wrong, but you overreached and seem unable to walk back a pretty simple wrong statement. Certainly it must be easier to just correct yourself rather than go through the series of odd deflections and straw man arguments as you have. The simple thing is that you don't speak Shanghainese and you don't know what you're saying. It's pretty crazy that you keep on trying to assert some kind of knowledge in this, but can't even meet something like what should be a barest minimum requirement to be making statements as you do.

What Chinese dialects do you speak anyhow? I'm curious.

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 12-29-2017 at 09:05 PM..
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Old 12-29-2017, 09:01 PM
 
6,725 posts, read 6,602,936 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Itís not an attack, itís just illustrating how ridiculously misinformed you are and how low a theshold you have for wanting to interject while not knowing what youíre talking about. Certainly there must be pros and cons to that kind of mentality, LOL!

You can try to find papers on arvix or such on mutual intelligibility or language derivation for Chinese languages and see what youíre saying is crap. You can even do a very basic wikipedia search as a start and follow its citations to the sources. You obviously canít support something you made up, so I wonít put the burden of proof on you. Youíre welcome!

Honestly, can you speak any of the other non-Mandarin dialects at all?
Oh I have quite a bit of common knowledge on Chinese dialects. My comments are based on my experience and studies which you are not aware of. Actually I have multiple published articles related to Shanghai Wu, and I conducted psycholinguistic research on Shanghai Wu.

I don't do research on linguistics now, but you are far from rational to assume I know nothing about such studies.
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Old 12-29-2017, 09:06 PM
 
6,725 posts, read 6,602,936 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Itís not an attack, itís just illustrating how misinformed you are and how low a threshold you have for wanting to interject while not knowing what youíre talking about. Certainly there must be pros and cons to that kind of mentality, LOL!

You can try to find papers on arvix or such on mutual intelligibility or language derivation for Chinese languages and see what youíre saying is crap. You can even do a very basic wikipedia search as a start and follow its citations to the sources. You obviously canít support something you made up, so I wonít put the burden of proof on you. You're of course not all wrong, but you overreached and seem unable to walk back a pretty simple wrong statement. The simple thing is that you don't speak Shanghainese and you don't know what you're saying. It's pretty crazy that you keep on trying to assert some kind of knowledge in this, but can't even meet something like what should be a barest minimum requirement to be making statements as you do.

What Chinese dialects do you speak anyhow? I'm curious.
If you really studied sociolinguistics you should understand native speakers' reports are not always reliable, especially when the number of speakers is one, and a very emotional, biased one.

I don't believe you, sorry. You can show me data. You are welcome.
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Old 12-29-2017, 09:09 PM
 
Location: In the heights
22,132 posts, read 23,648,900 times
Reputation: 11616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
If you really studied sociolinguistics you should understand native speakers' reports are not always reliable, especially when the number of speakers is one, and a very emotional, biased one.

I don't believe you, sorry. You can show me data. You are welcome.
Good deflection, man. Thanks!
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Old 12-29-2017, 09:18 PM
 
6,725 posts, read 6,602,936 times
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Fortunately, we are in the era of "big data".

https://zhidao.baidu.com/index/?word...fr=qrl&cid=463
Quote:
上海人能听懂苏州话吗?
我有更好答案
邀请更新 最佳答案
一般上海人都听不大懂苏州话,而苏州人基本上都的懂上海话的
~我以前就有个朋友是苏州人,到上海不长,我说的他都听的懂,他说起苏州话来就很难懂---个人观点

苏州话和上海话区别大吗能正常的交流吗
我有更好答案
最佳答案
别看离的近一个月,上海很少有能听懂苏州话的


苏州话和上海话区别大吗?能互通吗
我有更好答案 求助知道网友
回答
区别很大的,上海人听不懂的
Claim: I selected some comments supporting my opinion. They do not represent all people.
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Old 12-29-2017, 09:28 PM
 
Location: In the heights
22,132 posts, read 23,648,900 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
Fortunately, we are in the era of "big data".

https://zhidao.baidu.com/index/?word...fr=qrl&cid=463


Claim: I selected some comments supporting my opinion. They do not represent all people.
Wait, so you're basically trying to prove that you don't know what big data means or what?

You must certainly be missing something in translation from what I've been writing.

However, let's try to take you seriously here. You see a a lot of different responses in there with different people saying that yes they can understand or no they cannot with responses also varying in what they say is the magnitude of comprehension ranging from flat out no to yes, it is very easy to understand. What can account for that difference then? Certainly there's small variations within Suzhou dialect and Shanghainese within each themselves, but that's not quite helpful. What is the issue then? Well, it's most likely what we've been discussing--it's simply not that common to find fluent speakers of Shanghainese anymore and hasn't been common for years. The number of people who speak it on a daily basis in Shanghai isn't that high when you're talking to a random sample of people when visiting Shanghai, and so they will not be particularly great at understanding any Wu dialect, Shanghainese included. This is partially why you'll have people say things, including within your comments, things that basically run the lines of "Shanghainese can't understand Suzhou dialect, but Suzhou dialect speakers can understand Shanghainese."

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 12-29-2017 at 09:40 PM..
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Old 12-29-2017, 10:15 PM
 
6,725 posts, read 6,602,936 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Wait, so you're basically trying to prove that you don't know what big data means or what?

You must certainly be missing something in translation from what I've been writing.

However, let's try to take you seriously here. You see a a lot of different responses in there with different people saying that yes they can understand or no they cannot with responses also varying in what they say is the magnitude of comprehension ranging from flat out no to yes, it is very easy to understand. What can account for that difference then? Certainly there's small variations within Suzhou dialect and Shanghainese within each themselves, but that's not quite helpful. What is the issue then? Well, it's most likely what we've been discussing--it's simply not that common to find fluent speakers of Shanghainese anymore and hasn't been common for years. The number of people who speak it on a daily basis in Shanghai isn't that high when you're talking to a random sample of people when visiting Shanghai, and so they will not be particularly great at understanding any Wu dialect, Shanghainese included. This is partially why you'll have people say things, including within your comments, things that basically run the lines of "Shanghainese can't understand Suzhou dialect, but Suzhou dialect speakers can understand Shanghainese."
Ok. I'm talking about ordinary young people who speak Shanghainese at home. If you are looking for experts of Wu Chinese, or someone like yourself, no they are not who I refer to.

It's just common sense. The difference between Shanghai and Suzhou is similar to the difference between Beijing and Qingdao (in terms of tones, vowels, vocabulary...). I believe you are a native or near native speaker of standard Mandarin. Now please search for colloquial Qingdao dialect videos. Can you understand more than 80%? IMO, intelligibility lower than 80% is already a significant barrier for "normal" conversation.

You can also try other "Mandarin dialects" like Lanzhou, Xining, Kunming...
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Old 12-30-2017, 06:25 AM
 
Location: In the heights
22,132 posts, read 23,648,900 times
Reputation: 11616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
Ok. I'm talking about ordinary young people who speak Shanghainese at home. If you are looking for experts of Wu Chinese, or someone like yourself, no they are not who I refer to.

It's just common sense. The difference between Shanghai and Suzhou is similar to the difference between Beijing and Qingdao (in terms of tones, vowels, vocabulary...). I believe you are a native or near native speaker of standard Mandarin. Now please search for colloquial Qingdao dialect videos. Can you understand more than 80%? IMO, intelligibility lower than 80% is already a significant barrier for "normal" conversation.

You can also try other "Mandarin dialects" like Lanzhou, Xining, Kunming...
Not experts—people that are fluent speakers. It is somewhat rare for anyone under 40 to be a fluent speaker (and really only in the 60 and above where you get a really strong majority of people with fluency). Have you ever met people who speak Mandarin, but are American born Chinese who grew up there and never lived in China? Have you noticed for a large majority of them that their ability to speak Mandarin pretty often doesn’t get that far once you start talking with even a modest degree of complexity even if their parents basically spoke only Mandarin at home? That’s pretty much what you’re getting with almost all Shanghainese people under 40 years old.

It’s not like I don’t understand other branches of the Chinese language also can have large internal differences. The specific point I was disagreeing with you on isn’t that more general statement—I repeatedly have stated there are mutually unintelligible Wu languages. It’s specifically Suzhou dialect and Shanghainese (and that of the adjoining areas) that are similar where it’s relatively easy to understand between the two. Unfortunately, for Shanghainese as a language, it is increasingly rare in Shanghai to find people who fully speak the language.
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Old 12-30-2017, 07:54 AM
 
6,725 posts, read 6,602,936 times
Reputation: 2386
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Not expertsópeople that are fluent speakers. It is somewhat rare for anyone under 40 to be a fluent speaker (and really only in the 60 and above where you get a really strong majority of people with fluency). Have you ever met people who speak Mandarin, but are American born Chinese who grew up there and never lived in China? Have you noticed for a large majority of them that their ability to speak Mandarin pretty often doesnít get that far once you start talking with even a modest degree of complexity even if their parents basically spoke only Mandarin at home? Thatís pretty much what youíre getting with almost all Shanghainese people under 40 years old.

Itís not like I donít understand other branches of the Chinese language also can have large internal differences. The specific point I was disagreeing with you on isnít that more general statementóI repeatedly have stated there are mutually unintelligible Wu languages. Itís specifically Suzhou dialect and Shanghainese (and that of the adjoining areas) that are similar where itís relatively easy to understand between the two. Unfortunately, for Shanghainese as a language, it is increasingly rare in Shanghai to find people who fully speak the language.
Everyone has different capabilities and experience in terms of language. And every language is evolving.

If someone speaks Shanghainese at home since childhood, he is still a native speaker, even if he speaks a variant that has been influenced by Mandarin. I'm talking about these people, not those who know a lot of dead words or old phonology. Similar languages often share more common features in their older forms, but they diversify gradually.
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