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Old 12-30-2017, 08:18 AM
 
Location: In the heights
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
Everyone has different capabilities and experience in terms of language. And every language is evolving.

If someone speaks Shanghainese at home since childhood, he is still a native speaker, even if he speaks a variant that has been influenced by Mandarin. I'm talking about these people, not those who know a lot of dead words or old phonology. Similar languages often share more common features in their older forms, but they diversify gradually.
All languages evolve, but this is not a fluent Shanghainese speaker you’re talking about anymore because it is now someone who can no longer converse to any significant depth within that language. Sure, that person is a native of the region, but being a native does not by itself confer fluency. A pidgin or creole can have depth with the community and usage behind it—what you’re seeing here isn’t an evolution of a language as much as a slide into obscurity.
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Old 12-30-2017, 10:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
All languages evolve, but this is not a fluent Shanghainese speaker you’re talking about anymore because it is now someone who can no longer converse to any significant depth within that language. Sure, that person is a native of the region, but being a native does not by itself confer fluency. A pidgin or creole can have depth with the community and usage behind it—what you’re seeing here isn’t an evolution of a language as much as a slide into obscurity.
Then it is the reality. I only talk about speakers in reality not "ideal" speakers. The ideal speakers all have special experience or special interest, and do not represent ordinary people.
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Old 12-30-2017, 11:12 AM
 
Location: In the heights
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
Then it is the reality. I only talk about speakers in reality not "ideal" speakers. The ideal speakers all have special experience or special interest, and do not represent ordinary people.
We’re agreement this is the reality—there simply aren’t many fluent Shanghainese speakers these days. An ABC speaking with a child’s understanding of Mandarin does not mean there’s been a shift or an evolution of the language. It simply means the language wasn’t fully transmitted and is moribund. Your definitions are off which is perhaps your basis for why your random factoid was so off , too.
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Old 12-30-2017, 11:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
We’re agreement this is the reality—there simply aren’t many fluent Shanghainese speakers these days. An ABC speaking with a child’s understanding of Mandarin does not mean there’s been a shift or an evolution of the language. It simply means the language wasn’t fully transmitted and is moribund. Your definitions are off which is perhaps your basis for why your random factoid was so off , too.
Overseas Chinese do not represent the reality of Mandarin. People in Shanghai reflect the reality if Shanghainese.
My original post made it very clear: young people in Shanghai.
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Old 12-30-2017, 11:34 AM
 
Location: In the heights
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
Overseas Chinese do not represent the reality of Mandarin. People in Shanghai reflect the reality if Shanghainese.
My original post made it very clear: young people in Shanghai.
No, that was not your original statement.

I am using ABCs as an example for you, because I suspect it’s something you might be more familiar with and that you do not speak any of the languages of the other Chinese branches. Your statement was about Shanghainese speakers understanding Suzhou dialect and it was wrong. You now need to shift it to people who are Shanghainese but are not actually fluent in the language. Sure, I buy that statement, but that should just go without saying. Why would someone not fluent in a language be able to communicate well with someone who speaks a dialect of that language? This kind of deflection is such a stretch.
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Old 12-30-2017, 11:52 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
No, that was not your original statement.

I am using ABCs as an example for you, because I suspect it’s something you might be more familiar with and that you do not speak any of the languages of the other Chinese branches. Your statement was about Shanghainese speakers understanding Suzhou dialect and it was wrong. You now need to shift it to people who are Shanghainese but are not actually fluent in the language. Sure, I buy that statement, but that should just go without saying. Why would someone not fluent in a language be able to communicate well with someone who speaks a dialect of that language? This kind of deflection is such a stretch.
My first post said "people in Shanghai who are not used to Suzhou dialect". Of course it refers to young people (for the most part). Old people in Shanghai were exposed to Suzhou dialect often and many like 评弹 etc.

I already asked you to try other "Mandarin dialects" which are generally more similar to standard Mandarin than Suzhou to Shanghai. Have you tried? Can you capture colloquial Qingdao dialect completely?

I asked you to try this experiment because I assume you are not exposed to such dialects often but you are very fluent in a similar dialect- standard Mandarin. So you can have some real clue.
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Old 12-30-2017, 12:18 PM
 
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Here is a video recorded from a restaurant in Qingdao.
My hypothesis is people who are fluent in standard Mandarin but are not familiar with Qingdao can capture about 50-80%, depending on experience and capability.
Qingdao has different tones from Beijing, but the syllables are very similar. Vocabulary is very similar too.

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Old 12-30-2017, 01:09 PM
 
Location: In the heights
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
My first post said "people in Shanghai who are not used to Suzhou dialect". Of course it refers to young people (for the most part). Old people in Shanghai were exposed to Suzhou dialect often and many like 评弹 etc.

I already asked you to try other "Mandarin dialects" which are generally more similar to standard Mandarin than Suzhou to Shanghai. Have you tried? Can you capture colloquial Qingdao dialect completely?

I asked you to try this experiment because I assume you are not exposed to such dialects often but you are very fluent in a similar dialect- standard Mandarin. So you can have some real clue.
But what you're saying now equates to people who are not fluent in Shanghainese. What is the point then? What logic would that even follow for that statement to be worth saying? It's sort of like talking about people who have a very loose understanding of English and then trying to clarify that, oh, they don't understand Southern American English so well. Okay, great. That seems kind of pointless.

Your proposal that I listen to other Mandarin dialects, while great fun, doesn't logically counter anything I've said. I do believe there are Mandarin dialects that are not mutually intelligible with each other. I believe that of Wu languages as well. However, I pointed out a pretty specific pairing and region--Shanghai and Suzhou. This was very explicitly said, but you need to run a series of contortions and deflections in order to do what exactly?

Anyone who is fluent, as in can actually have a real conversation in Shanghainese, would be able to understand this (and not just the subtitles).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usUltHmuI0c

Even some of the people who are not fluent should be able to follow decently well.

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 12-30-2017 at 01:18 PM..
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Old 12-30-2017, 01:29 PM
 
6,726 posts, read 6,611,101 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
But what you're saying now equates to people who are not fluent in Shanghainese. What is the point then? What logic would that even follow for that statement to be worth saying? It's sort of like talking about people who have a very loose understanding of English and then trying to clarify that, oh, they don't understand Southern American English so well. Okay, great. That seems kind of pointless.

Your proposal that I listen to other Mandarin dialects, while great fun, doesn't logically counter anything I've said. I do believe there are Mandarin dialects that are not mutually intelligible with each other. I believe that of Wu languages as well. However, I pointed out a pretty specific pairing and region--Shanghai and Suzhou. This was very explicitly said, but you need to run a series of contortions and deflections in order to do what exactly?

Anyone who is fluent, as in can actually have a real conversation in Shanghainese, would be able to understand this (and not just the subtitles).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usUltHmuI0c

Even some of the people who are not fluent should be able to follow decently well.
I asked you to listen to Qingdao. The phonology, lexicon and syntax of Qingdao are quite similar to Beijing. More similar than Suzhou to Shanghai IMO. I didn't talk about "difficult Mandarin dialects" like Nantong.

I'm interested in Shanghainese of today, in reality. Sorry if you misunderstood it.

Staged shows with subtitles are not really colloquial BTW. When I listen to Cantonese news, I understand nearly 100%, for movies, about 90%. But when I actually talk to older Cantonese speakers, I only understand 70% of what they say.

Last edited by Bettafish; 12-30-2017 at 01:56 PM..
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Old 12-30-2017, 04:40 PM
 
Location: In the heights
22,154 posts, read 23,683,428 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
I asked you to listen to Qingdao. The phonology, lexicon and syntax of Qingdao are quite similar to Beijing. More similar than Suzhou to Shanghai IMO. I didn't talk about "difficult Mandarin dialects" like Nantong.

I'm interested in Shanghainese of today, in reality. Sorry if you misunderstood it.

Staged shows with subtitles are not really colloquial BTW. When I listen to Cantonese news, I understand nearly 100%, for movies, about 90%. But when I actually talk to older Cantonese speakers, I only understand 70% of what they say.
I listened to it and it's not the first time I've heard really heavy Qingdao accent. It's fun. It's also besides the point, because I'm not arguing that Qingdao Mandarin and Beijing Mandarin are mutually intelligible.

It doesn't matter to me what your opinion of this is. We both speak Mandarin I assume and so we can gauge Qingdao. You, as far as I can tell, don't speak Suzhou dialect or Shanghainese which makes it hard for you to gauge this.

I'm glad you're interested in Shanghainese of today. However, the fact is a lot of Shanghainese, the people, cannot speak Shanghainese, the Wu language, fluently (or at all as increasingly common with each generation) never mind the fact that a lot of people in Shanghai are not Shanghainese at all as in not born there or born of parents who were born there. This counts a lot for the disparity of experiences people have when you get people from Suzhou who say the people they talked to in Shanghai couldn't understand them while also getting people who say they were able to communicate just fine.
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