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Old 12-31-2017, 10:14 AM
 
6,725 posts, read 6,602,936 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
My hypothetical is people able to understand Suzhou and dialects of some of the other adjoining areas if they are fluent in Shanghainese. Someone who is fluent will understand it prior to contact. Your hypothetical ended up having to draw on an average young person in Shanghai who likely does not speak Shanghainese fluently to make your point. I think that's pretty much twisting your own words to try to make things fit your original statement.

It doesn't matter that much if you don't believe me--it's more so other people on the forum aren't misinformed by you. I think this is good, because this back and forth carries with it a pretty good answer to the OP's original questions.

Yes, that's why I said it. Good!
Whatever, readers will have their own judgement now. Just to summarize my own points:

Mutual intelligibility depends on not only the features of the languages, but also frequency of language contact.

For the former, the linguistic features of Suzhou and Shanghai are more different than the internal variation of most Mandarin variants. Those Mandarin variants, as any native speaker of Mandarin can tell, are already not fully mutually intelligible.

For the latter, contemporary Shanghainese has lost contact with other Wu, but gained much more contact with Mandarin. People's exposure to Suzhou and other Wu dialects has dropped to a very low level. The diversification also speeds up, due to influence from Mandarin.

As a result, young people in Shanghai generally do not understand Suzhou dialect well.
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Old 12-31-2017, 10:52 AM
 
Location: In the heights
22,135 posts, read 23,648,900 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
Whatever, readers will have their own judgement now. Just to summarize my own points:

Mutual intelligibility depends on not only the features of the languages, but also frequency of language contact.

For the former, the linguistic features of Suzhou and Shanghai are more different than the internal variation of most Mandarin variants. Those Mandarin variants, as any native speaker of Mandarin can tell, are already not fully mutually intelligible.

For the latter, contemporary Shanghainese has lost contact with other Wu, but gained much more contact with Mandarin. People's exposure to Suzhou and other Wu dialects has dropped to a very low level. The diversification also speeds up, due to influence from Mandarin.

As a result, young people in Shanghai generally do not understand Suzhou dialect well.
Young people in Shanghai generally cannot speak Shanghainese very well--I think you gloss over that and that's pretty directly relevant to the topic. I am completely in agreement that exposure to a language affects comprehension, but you're radically off-base on mutually intelligibility between Suzhou and Shanghainese speakers.

You should also for the record, let people know that you can speak neither of these languages (Suzhou or Shanghainese) with any fluency which is probably the funniest part of this whole thing.
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Old 12-31-2017, 11:34 AM
 
6,725 posts, read 6,602,936 times
Reputation: 2386
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Young people in Shanghai generally cannot speak Shanghainese very well--I think you gloss over that and that's pretty directly relevant to the topic. I am completely in agreement that exposure to a language affects comprehension, but you're radically off-base on mutually intelligibility between Suzhou and Shanghainese speakers.

You should also for the record, let people know that you can speak neither of these languages (Suzhou or Shanghainese) with any fluency which is probably the funniest part of this whole thing.
The reason why you are not trustworthy is right because you are one of the few Shanghainese of today who have high proficiency in both. Totally an outlier, a biased one. Your emotional statements add to it.

I know quite a few such people actually, online and in real life. They did a lot of work to promote Wu: designed Wu pinyin (in different versions), collected Wu audio/video materials and so on. I respect their enthusiasm but unfortunately some of them like to go extreme. I don't want to talk about the details since it is not quite relevant here.

I should also let people know I have multiple published articles related to Shanghai Wu on accredited journals.
I did research in Fudan University and literally talked to hundreds of native speakers, on a broad spectrum of topics. I do not speak Shanghainese but understand it to quite some extent.

However, I did use it occasionally. Once I met an old lady from rural northern Zhejiang, who cannot speak Mandarin. I tried using my "Shanghainese" to talk to her. We did achieve basic communication.
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Old 01-01-2018, 01:24 PM
 
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
9,876 posts, read 6,613,293 times
Reputation: 6273
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Okay, but thatís an effect not a cause. It is not needed because the government purposefully pushes use of Mandarin-derived Chinese above all else. This is completely intentional and a top down directive.
And yet, by comparison, the Cantonese dialect is much more stronger and widely used in Guangdong province, and isn't going to die out soon.
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Old 01-01-2018, 08:27 PM
 
102 posts, read 48,455 times
Reputation: 51
Beijing dialect is still pretty strong, and appear more than other dialects on Chinese television. Beijing dialect is not the same as standard Mandarin.


Shanghai dialect is not strong. Reason is probably many Shanghainese have moved overseas and to HK and Taiwan in the past.


Shenzhen is located between two Cantonese speaking cities, Guangzhou and Hong Kong. Mandarin is strong in Shenzhen and Dongguan, with most people from other provinces.
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