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Old 12-24-2017, 07:03 AM
 
196 posts, read 133,741 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
Hong Kong people "discriminate" Cantonese speakers from mainland as much as Mandarin speakers, if they can tell the difference. The HK vs mainland thing should not be understood as a language or cultural conflicts only.

Mainlanders do not look up to HKers any more (compared to decades ago). So sometimes they become very angry when HKers reveal the discrimination.

Anyway, most young overseas Chinese can speak Mandarin now, even if their native language is Cantonese. Occasionally you still meet a young person who only speaks Cantonese. Typically such people are not interested in Chinese culture at all, and they only learned Cantonese because their parents speak it at home, and they cannot write any Chinese character.
In general, yes the mainland Chinese do not look up to Hong Kong anymore.

However, people in the Guangdong province, still somewhat look up to them although as you mentioned not like many years earlier. I would say the Guangzhou people are still able to relate to the Hong Kong culture better because they speak the same Cantonese; although Hong Kong dialect has more English influence and they both eat the same dim sum and they have the most similarities to each other because the Hong Kong dialect and culture descended from Guangzhou as many of the Guangzhou speakers in the earlier days arrived in large numbers to Hong Kong, it is just that it has been influence a lot by the British culture. Although Guangzhou is in Mainland China, they are very developed almost like Hong Kong and they have similar mannerisms like Hong Kong. Very often, Guangzhou people discriminate against other Mainland Chinese people and more so than other regional Chinese cultures, although not quite like Hong Kong people, but almost just as much. Guangzhou people also have had a superiority feeling of their culture, but with the influence of Hong Kong, it just added even more pride to them and wanting to act like Hong Kong people.

The discrimination that Hong Kong people have against Cantonese speakers in Guangdong are usually often more from rural village areas because the mannerisms differ so much more in the rural parts of China in addition, they speak their own versions of Cantonese different from Guangzhou/Hong Kong; although most of them can speak the Guangzhou/Hong Kong dialects because of the availability of Hong Kong entertainment and with their constant business interactions with Guangzhou and Hong Kong, they sometimes do not speak it as accurately. The Hong Kongers do discriminate against the Guangzhou people sometimes, but it is comparatively low compared to other Guangdong people and even much worse so towards other Mandarin speakers.

As for your statement about most overseas young Chinese knowing Mandarin, I need to correct you on that. The ones born to Non-Cantonese speaking parents know Mandarin. The young Cantonese speakers that know how to speak Mandarin are likely to have been born in and grew up or at least spent the first half of their childhood/youth years in Guangdong or Hong Kong. The overseas born Cantonese speakers are very unlikely to know Mandarin, however some of them have been in Chinese school learning Mandarin, but often they never learn to become fluent and remain very rudimentary in speaking/reading wise. It is very rare to find overseas born Cantonese speakers that can speak Mandarin fluently. And yes, you are right, the overseas born Cantonese speakers are likely to not want to associate being Chinese and I have mentioned before, they associate almost entirely to the nation they were born in and simply consider themselves plainly as that national culture. I can understand this as if they do not speak Mandarin, they are likely to not feel connected with the Chinese culture as a whole, but what makes it really sad is they grew up in Cantonese speaking households with Hong Kong entertainment available in the house by their family members, but yet they will not even try to stay in touch with their Cantonese culture for one bit at least.

As for the overseas born to Mandarin speakers, they are more likely to be more in touch with Chinese culture even though they have adapted the national environment they have grew up in.
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Old 12-24-2017, 09:30 AM
 
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^^ Yes, Mandarin is not really too hard to learn for Cantonese speakers. If one makes some efforts, he can learn to understand it within one month, and learn to speak it in a few months (even if not fluent). Nowadays those who cannot understand Mandarin are definitely not interested in Chinese culture at all.
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Old 12-24-2017, 09:54 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
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It's about the Han majority, vs. non-Han.
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Old 12-24-2017, 12:30 PM
 
196 posts, read 133,741 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
^^ Yes, Mandarin is not really too hard to learn for Cantonese speakers. If one makes some efforts, he can learn to understand it within one month, and learn to speak it in a few months (even if not fluent). Nowadays those who cannot understand Mandarin are definitely not interested in Chinese culture at all.
Yes, in general the overseas born Cantonese speakers unable to understand Mandarin often do not have any interest in Chinese culture, but there are a few that want to learn, but do not have the opportunity.

As for Cantonese speakers learning Mandarin, first of all everyone's learning ability varies. So I have to say there is a yes and no in this and you are overgeneralizing.

Cantonese Can Learn Mandarin Much Easily If They Already Know The Chinese Writing System
It is usually a lot more easier for Cantonese speakers to learn Mandarin if they have studied the Chinese writing system because when they watch Mandarin entertainment with Chinese subtitles, they can take their time to listen to what they are saying and match it to the Chinese characters they already know how to read and all they need to do is just learn the Mandarin pronunciations and along with practice of using it.

Overseas Born Cantonese Speakers Illiterate In Chinese Will Have A Much Difficult Time Learning Mandarin
As for overseas born Cantonese speakers that never learned the Chinese writing system, it is a lot harder to learn Mandarin for them. It is almost as difficult as learning engineering. Okay a little bit exaggerated on comparing it to engineering. But it is almost as an English speaking person learning Russian.

Yes, even if the overseas born Cantonese speakers illiterate in Chinese make efforts to learn Mandarin, they will realize a lot of them are similar to Cantonese and can pick up a little bit of speaking fluency, however it is very difficult for them to go so far and it will take a very long time for them to even learn how to speak it fluently without knowing the Chinese writing system. Very often, when overseas Cantonese speakers try to learn Mandarin without knowing the Chinese writing system, they very often never become very fluent in the language.

It Is Easier To Improve On Speaking/Comprehending Chinese When Making Improvements On Chinese Literacy
It is actually a lot easier to improve on speaking/understanding Chinese when making efforts to improve on Chinese literacy. Even if the Chinese literacy skills are basic, it still helps very tremendously with improving on speaking/comprehending Chinese because when the person wants to say something in Mandarin, an image of the word can appear more easily in their minds. Of course, utilizing romanizations heavily in the beginning is a big need in learning how to read Chinese characters and in the beginning of learning, they may initially visualize romanizations first when they want to say certain Mandarin words, but eventually can learn to visualize the characters more and more as they advance.

Not To Generalize All, But Often It Is Easier For Overseas Born Cantonese To Improve On Mandarin If They Improve On Chinese Reading In Both Mandarin And Cantonese Pronunciations Together
When overseas born Cantonese speakers learn a little bit of Mandarin and the Chinese writing system, but want to advance in Mandarin more quickly, it usually makes better sense for them to come back to their familiar Cantonese dialect to also learn how to pronounce the Mandarin words they have learned in Cantonese pronunciations and refocus on making further improvements on Chinese reading in Cantonese pronunciation first and then move forward again to learning the Mandarin pronunciations of the Chinese characters. Not only does this help with making their Cantonese speaking and Chinese literacy improve, but it makes it easier to improve on Mandarin. Now since standard written Chinese is based off spoken Mandarin, when read in Cantonese it sounds nothing like spoken Cantonese, however the overseas born Cantonese speakers learning the Chinese writing system in Mandarin along with learning the Cantonese pronunciations will realize a lot of the Chinese characters they are learning are words they already know in spoken Cantonese, it is just that some of them are used in different definitions and contexts between Mandarin and Cantonese and some of them sound like words they have heard at one point or another in spoken Cantonese and then it makes it easier for them to learn the Mandarin pronunciations of the Chinese characters and hence their improvement in Cantonese will also help with improving on Mandarin more easily. In addition, when standard Chinese is read in Cantonese, many of them will find it poetic even romantic even though in the beginning it may sound awkward and now they will understand why the Cantonese songs sound nothing like spoken Cantonese and will realize it is spoken Mandarin, but in Cantonese pronunciations and slowly they will realize for all official documents, magazines, books, newspapers, subtitles in television programming all use written Mandarin in Hong Kong and Guangdong. Once again I will say this that they will need to utilize Mandarin and Cantonese romanizations often. Thankfully, there are now websites available where you can now look up Cantonese and Mandarin romanizations of Chinese characters and google translate is available. Cantonese and Mandarin Entertainment and using the language with native speakers also can help.

When standard Chinese is read in both Cantonese and Mandarin, they actually sound very similar and almost intelligible on some aspects, but it is just that some the pronunciations are a little bit different and some are totally deviated in their differences. However, when read in Mandarin, it is mostly spoken Mandarin, but when read in Cantonese, it sounds too formal for spoken Cantonese and sound nothing like spoken Cantonese. Actually, because the spoken Cantonese does not match the standard Chinese writing, that is actually the biggest reasons why Mandarin speakers are unable to understand Cantonese in addition to the pronunciation differences.

Last edited by toby2016; 12-24-2017 at 01:25 PM..
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Old 12-25-2017, 09:57 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Hanzi should romanized into Pinyin. makes it easier for the tourist
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Old 12-25-2017, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Taipei
6,773 posts, read 5,116,323 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
It's about the Han majority, vs. non-Han.
Actually no. Itís textbook class discrimination. Those in the big cities look down upon everything in and from the countryside, those from the richer, coastal provinces look down upon those from the inland provinces, and collectively, they look down upon the SE Asians and Africans for being poor and lower class. The Hans look down upon the minorities for the same reason, as the minorities are often the ones lacking all sorts of resources and are mostly residing in poorer inland territories.
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Old 12-25-2017, 03:01 PM
 
6,724 posts, read 6,599,126 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangerous-Boy View Post
Hanzi should romanized into Pinyin. makes it easier for the tourist
All street signs in China have pinyin/English.
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Old 12-27-2017, 03:23 PM
 
Location: Honolulu
1,350 posts, read 544,581 times
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It has less to do with language than with culture.

For example, you can get jail term for abusing dog, killing dog or/and even eating dog meat in Hong Kong. However, it is legal to kill dog and eat dog meat in China. It is especially popular in Guangdong and Guangxi (some parts of the province still speak Cantonese). Dog meat stall is very common in the market.

So whenever there is news in Hong Kong that dogs are brutally killed (usually the culprit is someone from Guangdong who came to the City legally or illegally), all the media, no matter they are pro or anti government, usually hold a contempt view towards those indicted.

Two people speaking Cantonese do not mean both share the same value.
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Old 12-27-2017, 03:35 PM
 
Location: Honolulu
1,350 posts, read 544,581 times
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The language issue is way overblown and too politicized.

Hong Kong has always been susceptible to Mandarin. The hundreds of movies churned out by the Shaw Brothers Studio between 1950s-1970s were 99.99% dubbed in Mandarin. Its boss, the late Sir Run Run Shaw, who lived until 104, could hardly speak any Cantonese.

But nobody thinks he was not a Hong Konger.
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Old 12-28-2017, 10:00 AM
 
1,089 posts, read 477,308 times
Reputation: 739
The concept of "supremacy" is more relevant in a newly established world such as American continent, Australia, South Africa ... China, on the other hand, was established since ancient time by one unified people and culture and continued to present time.
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