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Old 03-13-2018, 11:49 PM
 
4,665 posts, read 2,640,154 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20 View Post
Agreed, which makes South Koreans eternally grateful to America for stepping in. A long with making North Korea China's problem. Everything associated with North Korean, including the innocent blood of North Koreans, is on China's hands. They just couldn't allow themselves and their ego to accept a western democratic country established right on their border.
China has come a long way since the Korean War and if Kim invaded the south today, heíd likely stand alone. I wouldnít be surprised if China allied with S korea actually, but most likely they will remain nuetral in just about any Korean conflict.

The best and most forgotten part of the Korean War was the death of Mao Zedongs son who was killed in an air strike in Korea. If his son hadnít been killed, I think China would be drastically different today and for the worse. Mao did have another son, but he was mentally handicapped and never had any influence.

But, I blame the Kim family for the Korean War and for no possible path for unification while they are in power. The Soviets helped create the Kims, but Russia apologized and distanced themselves from that. If China hadnít intervened we would have a unified Korea under Seoul, so I can understand animosity toward them, but I personally donít put the blame on China.
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Old 03-14-2018, 07:25 AM
 
12,292 posts, read 18,409,613 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattks View Post
Of course they were destroying the infrastructure. The US wasn’t prepared for a war and had to stop the invasion by destroying all paths whether they be roads, bridges, trains, airports, etc into southern Korea. China had 1.3 million reinforcements coming which alone was more then all the UN soldiers combined, not including N Korean soldiers. The US had half the soldiers that China did. If we hadn’t stop that invasion the whole of Korea would be living under Kim’s rule.

Despite popular belief, the Soviets actually didn’t help N Korea much except with some aircraft, but even then, most of the aircraft was from China. By the end of the war only 299 Soviet soldiers died in combat. Turkey by comparison lost over 700, and China lost between 200,000 and 400,000.
As a historical note, my father was a B26 driver in the war in 1952 to 1953. They didn't focus on infrastructure, but supply lines. By his time the front was stabilized along the DMZ and he said on BOTH SIDES the entire country was essentially destroyed by the back and forth fighting. Likely from ground fighting and both sides artillery. Seoul had changed hands some 3 or 4 times. Anyways they had a steady stream of B26 sorties flying over the north, constantly every day and every hour, he would be assigned to a strip or road or train track during night and target anything moving south, avoiding the very accurate Chinese AA fire. If no targets after a few hours he would drop his load on a mountainside or in the ocean and fly home (you never return and try to land with a full bomb bay). Most of the claims of "more bombs dropped on Korea during the entire second world war" (or, insert Vietnam) were these interdiction type mission were bombs were often dropped harmlessly.
It was however very effective, indeed China has a million men that could overrun the south...but they could not move without supplies. It's this bombing of supply lines that forced the communists to the bargaining table, eventually saving lives on both sides.
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Old 03-14-2018, 08:09 AM
 
Location: Howard County, Maryland
5,672 posts, read 3,647,750 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20 View Post
Lived in Korea for 1 year and a lot of South Koreans have no interest in reuniting. They don't want to pay the monumental cost of modernizing North Korea.
Canít say where I blame them. They built up their country from scratch by the sweat of their brows, so why should they squander all that they earned on their backwards, indoctrinated ďbrothersĒ? If the two Koreas ever reunite, it cannot be a union of equals, but that of conqueror and conquered. Only after a great deal of time and effort and expense could they even start thinking about being equal.

For their sake, letís hope that the united country would be ruled from Seoul, not Pyongyang.
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Old 03-14-2018, 08:55 AM
 
15,734 posts, read 9,251,350 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
the korean war.

Before you say that was a UN army I'll inform you it was leader by American commanders and generals, with the majority of the troops and weapons being American as well; the UN was just a cover for US aggression.

I'm sure you'll bring up the fact that the North Invaded first but that was Korean soldiers trying to reunify the country for the fake western puppet state with no functioning economy after ww2.

The North Korean army was a majority Korean army with some Chinese/soviet help while on the south Korean side it was a majority foreign army propped up by the US (similar to Vietnam).
So facts don't matter. Noted.

Thank goodness Americans aided the UN in defending South Korea.

Reunify the country, my rear. The communist-backed dictator in the north wanted to take over the entire country and make it a puppet state of China.

Again, thank goodness the US propped up the south. (I love how you call the north's army "helped", yet the south had a foreign army). I get every South Korean is thankful that they didn't suffer the fate of their northern neighbor. One only has to look to the difference in countries to see who is better off.

And you STILL haven't shown me where we invaded Korea.
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Old 03-14-2018, 09:51 AM
 
Location: Manchester NH
9,611 posts, read 2,654,642 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ringwise View Post
So facts don't matter. Noted.

Thank goodness Americans aided the UN in defending South Korea.

Reunify the country, my rear. The communist-backed dictator in the north wanted to take over the entire country and make it a puppet state of China.

Again, thank goodness the US propped up the south. (I love how you call the north's army "helped", yet the south had a foreign army). I get every South Korean is thankful that they didn't suffer the fate of their northern neighbor. One only has to look to the difference in countries to see who is better off.

And you STILL haven't shown me where we invaded Korea.
the Americans pressured the UN to intervene as their cover for an invasion.

If the US hadn't bombed NK to the ground leaving millions to starve and then laughing about it the Kim regime would be nothing like it is today.
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Old 03-14-2018, 10:38 AM
 
12,292 posts, read 18,409,613 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
the Americans pressured the UN to intervene as their cover for an invasion.

If the US hadn't bombed NK to the ground leaving millions to starve and then laughing about it the Kim regime would be nothing like it is today.
As there cover?? Cover for what? WTF...I don't even know what that means. Are you suggesting that the US made some deal with Stalin to convince North Korea to invade the south just so the US can get the UN to invade the north? This is beyond the reality zone. This is lunatic fringe territory. But it is entertaining. Please go on...

Do you know South Korean civilian casualties were almost double the amount of North Korean civilian casualties?
Source:
https://www.cnn.com/2013/06/28/world...cts/index.html
I told you this debate is without merit - the one that started the aggression is 100% to blame.
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Old 03-14-2018, 01:54 PM
 
4,665 posts, read 2,640,154 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
As a historical note, my father was a B26 driver in the war in 1952 to 1953. They didn't focus on infrastructure, but supply lines. By his time the front was stabilized along the DMZ and he said on BOTH SIDES the entire country was essentially destroyed by the back and forth fighting. Likely from ground fighting and both sides artillery. Seoul had changed hands some 3 or 4 times. Anyways they had a steady stream of B26 sorties flying over the north, constantly every day and every hour, he would be assigned to a strip or road or train track during night and target anything moving south, avoiding the very accurate Chinese AA fire. If no targets after a few hours he would drop his load on a mountainside or in the ocean and fly home (you never return and try to land with a full bomb bay). Most of the claims of "more bombs dropped on Korea during the entire second world war" (or, insert Vietnam) were these interdiction type mission were bombs were often dropped harmlessly.
It was however very effective, indeed China has a million men that could overrun the south...but they could not move without supplies. It's this bombing of supply lines that forced the communists to the bargaining table, eventually saving lives on both sides.
I’m sure your father had many interesting stories to listen to. My moms dad was a pilot who flew over Italy in WWII, he passed away many years before I ever met him, but I’m sure he had some amazing stories as well. We have a bunch of photos of him in the army, whatever they called the Air Force division of the army at that time.

When I said infrastructure, I was really meaning supply lines for their military. Their main focus at the start of the war was on the bridges over the Yu(?) river, railroads, and airports. The Chinese actually had a fairly modern Air Force even back in the 1950’s. We lost quite a few bombers during the war and it was a very dangerous job.

EDIT: I meant the Yalu River, not the Yu river.
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Old 03-14-2018, 02:38 PM
 
12,292 posts, read 18,409,613 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattks View Post
Iím sure your father had many interesting stories to listen to. My moms dad was a pilot who flew over Italy in WWII, he passed away many years before I ever met him, but Iím sure he had some amazing stories as well. We have a bunch of photos of him in the army, whatever they called the Air Force division of the army at that time.

When I said infrastructure, I was really meaning supply lines for their military. Their main focus at the start of the war was on the bridges over the Yu(?) river, railroads, and airports. The Chinese actually had a fairly modern Air Force even back in the 1950ís. We lost quite a few bombers during the war and it was a very dangerous job.

EDIT: I meant the Yalu River, not the Yu river.
He does have some amazing stories, he is still alive in his 90s. Most of his stories he wrote down in the in a long manual about a decade ago but he had forgotten many of the details.

A few of things of what he recalled - he was saying most of the B-26 combat losses - the air crews were simply never heard from again and no one would ever know what happened. It's not like WW2 where you flew in formation with dozens of bombers. These guys took off alone and patrolled alone in a certain stretch of road or track, as far north as the Yalu. Then after a few hours another flight took over and you flew south back to base. If your plane went down in the north and you didn't have time to send out a signal, that was it. There were no "wingman" to witness you go down. You simply disappeared. If you survived the crash the Chinese and N. Korean weren't known for taking prisoners.

He said he didn't have to worry about MIGs because I think at that time the MIGs were mostly destroyed and/or they didn't operate at night at that late phase in the war. At least not in his sector. But there was a "MIG alley" as I recall.

The B 26 was a light bomber so it was perfect for supply lines in the mountainous terrain. They wanted them to do the bombing runs at 50 feet! At that height, he had to worry about not only AA, but small arms fire, mountain sides, and even getting hit by the shrapnel from his own bomb drops. He pretty much said screw that after the first few hairy missions and bombed at higher altitude. The enemy would actually string up long cables between the mountains, from one peak to another, to bring down planes. He also talked about "flak traps" and the tricks that the enemy would use to lure planes into heavy AA concentrations and bring down planes.
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Old 03-14-2018, 02:57 PM
 
4,665 posts, read 2,640,154 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
He does have some amazing stories, he is still alive in his 90s. Most of his stories he wrote down in the in a long manual about a decade ago but he had forgotten many of the details.

A few of things of what he recalled - he was saying most of the B-26 combat losses - the air crews were simply never heard from again and no one would ever know what happened. It's not like WW2 where you flew in formation with dozens of bombers. These guys took off alone and patrolled alone in a certain stretch of road or track, as far north as the Yalu. Then after a few hours another flight took over and you flew south back to base. If your plane went down in the north and you didn't have time to send out a signal, that was it. There were no "wingman" to witness you go down. You simply disappeared. If you survived the crash the Chinese and N. Korean weren't known for taking prisoners.

He said he didn't have to worry about MIGs because I think at that time the MIGs were mostly destroyed and/or they didn't operate at night at that late phase in the war. At least not in his sector. But there was a "MIG alley" as I recall.

The B 26 was a light bomber so it was perfect for supply lines in the mountainous terrain. They wanted them to do the bombing runs at 50 feet! At that height, he had to worry about not only AA, but small arms fire, mountain sides, and even getting hit by the shrapnel from his own bomb drops. He pretty much said screw that after the first few hairy missions and bombed at higher altitude. The enemy would actually string up long cables between the mountains, from one peak to another, to bring down planes. He also talked about "flak traps" and the tricks that the enemy would use to lure planes into heavy AA concentrations and bring down planes.
Thatís awesome that he and you are recording his experiences. Im a sucker for stories like that. Iím creating a memoir for my in-laws and their life experiences in China. My mother-in-law was in the Chinese army and hearing those stories is eye opening. She worked in the propaganda wing of the army. My father in law was the son of a prominent nationalist who owned a shipyard in Shanghai, and they getting together was a story to itself.
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Old 03-14-2018, 06:01 PM
 
1,830 posts, read 1,253,023 times
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I wonder how North Korean apologists even exist in the US. Even before the division, Koreans looks favorably upon the US compared to other powers, possible exception of China, although that changed after the Communists took over. Yes, the US "occupied" southern Korea in the same way the USSR occupied northern Korea, but the Koreans largely welcomed the Americans while voluntary populatuon movements following the announcement of the division saw an overwhelming number of moves being from the future North to the future South and not the reverse. The only "wrong" most Koreans then and now see the US having done to the nation was letting the Soviets and then China take control over most the peninsula rather than temporarily occupying the entire peninsula itself.
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