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Old 05-05-2018, 10:08 PM
 
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So I've been researching the Iranian revolution a lot lately and I can't help but notice some similarities to what's happening in Turkey. A secular Muslim country with a dictator. I strong middle class but also a bloated heavily impoverished lower class. I've also heard there's already been coup attempts on him, and rumors of increased radicalism in Turkey have me wondering. I really don't want to see Turkey turn into what Iran became. For a while I thought they where a model Muslim country, I just hope they can restore a true democracy.
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Old 05-06-2018, 12:56 AM
 
Location: Cebu, Philippines
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Have you considered the possibility that Islam and Democracy are not a workable mix? To insist on both at the same time is a balancing act difficult to maintain.
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Old 05-06-2018, 04:06 AM
 
Location: Ankara, Turkey
401 posts, read 184,213 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cebuan View Post
Have you considered the possibility that Islam and Democracy are not a workable mix? To insist on both at the same time is a balancing act difficult to maintain.
Why?
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Old 05-06-2018, 09:00 AM
 
Location: Cebu, Philippines
4,364 posts, read 1,657,079 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selen View Post
Why?
Because Muslims have little cultural heritage nor constitutional desire to govern themselves. They would rather follow principles laid down by a higher power, whether it be Allah or an Emir. It's always worked for them.

You can't just walk up to people who have always followed unquestioned edicts and tell them OK, now elect your own oligarchs. They have no prior experience judging campaign slogans to determine which minor charismatic potentates whey want to see squabbling over issues that one wise man can easily decide.
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Old 05-06-2018, 09:17 AM
 
Location: Ankara, Turkey
401 posts, read 184,213 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cebuan View Post
Muslims have little cultural heritage nor constitutional desire to govern themselves. They would rather follow principles laid down by a higher power, whether it be Allah or an Emir. It's always worked for them.

You can't just walk up to people who have always followed unquestioned edicts and tell them OK, now elect your own oligarchs. They have no prior experience judging campaign slogans to determine which minor charismatic potentates whey want to see squabbling over issues that one wise man can easily decide.
Really? Are muslims a special kind of homo sapiens? Maybe homo sapiens muslimus or something as you think they are so different from others?

Everything you wrote are false by the way and reflect Islamophobia and lack of general culture and knowledge of world history. Oh and I ask again, just a few days ago you said political issues about Israel should be discussed in the politics forum not world forums. But you seem to have no problem discussing political issues about Turkey and Muslims in the world forums. I wonder why
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Old 05-06-2018, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Cebu, Philippines
4,364 posts, read 1,657,079 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selen View Post
Really? Are muslims a special kind of homo sapiens? Maybe homo sapiens muslimus or something as you think they are so different from others?

Everything you wrote are false by the way and reflect Islamophobia and lack of general culture and knowledge of world history. Oh and I ask again, just a few days ago you said political issues about Israel should be discussed in the politics forum not world forums. But you seem to have no problem discussing political issues about Turkey and Muslims in the world forums. I wonder why
Democracy is a cultural value, not an evolved attribute of the human species. So is Islam. There is nothing "natural" about either of them. People can survive, and do, quite well, with or without either of them. More importantly, neither Democracy nor Islam is inherently "good" nor "bad". But they characteristically work at cross purposes. The objective of democracy is to impede central authoritarian control, and the objective of Islam is to enforce central authoritarian control. They make a very unhappy marriage.

Please do not confuse partisan politics with political science. They are not the same thing. If you wish to say that democracy is good or bad or that Islam is good or bad, you are expressing partisan politics, which has no place in this subforum.

As for your accusations, first, I challenge you to demonstrate that anything I just said is "false". As for Islamophobe, there is nobody on this board who is more supportive than I am for tolerance and respect for Muslims. As for lack of knowledge, I lived for two years in one Muslim country and for a shorter time in another, I lived very happily within the context of Islamic society, employed by and working with Muslims, and grew to have a great deal of respect for Muslims and their faith and their culture, and I know and understand their history quite well.

Last edited by cebuan; 05-06-2018 at 05:22 PM..
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Old 05-07-2018, 12:35 AM
 
Location: Ankara, Turkey
401 posts, read 184,213 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cebuan View Post

As for your accusations, first, I challenge you to demonstrate that anything I just said is "false". As for Islamophobe, there is nobody on this board who is more supportive than I am for tolerance and respect for Muslims. As for lack of knowledge, I lived for two years in one Muslim country and for a shorter time in another, I lived very happily within the context of Islamic society, employed by and working with Muslims, and grew to have a great deal of respect for Muslims and their faith and their culture, and I know and understand their history quite well.
You said muslims have no experience with democracy . That is completely false. In addition to others , Turkey also had/has a multi party parliamentary democracy since 1946. With great help from US supported Islamist cults ( That’s your American tax dollars, thanks US), that secular democracy is under huge threat now. US supported these political Islamists and Islamist cults in Turkey for decades against seculars. So Turkey does have decades of democracy experience.

So there you go, you are completely wrong and your allegation that muslims aren’t capable of self governing is proven as wrong and it does prove and reflect Islamophobia and lack of knowledge in general.

How is wonderful Chistian democracy Phillipines doing? How is shooting criminals on the street without trial going? Oh the Christians and their democracies. It’s impossible not to admire you guys.

Moderator cut: off topic, see below

Last edited by Oldhag1; 05-08-2018 at 04:37 AM.. Reason: If you want to discuss this message me but doing so on the open forum is against the TOS
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Old 05-07-2018, 04:20 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
9,561 posts, read 2,641,528 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turnerbro View Post
So I've been researching the Iranian revolution a lot lately and I can't help but notice some similarities to what's happening in Turkey. A secular Muslim country with a dictator. I strong middle class but also a bloated heavily impoverished lower class. I've also heard there's already been coup attempts on him, and rumors of increased radicalism in Turkey have me wondering. I really don't want to see Turkey turn into what Iran became. For a while I thought they where a model Muslim country, I just hope they can restore a true democracy.
Iranians didn't revolt because they were poor uneducated savages like you've been lead to believe.

There were many different factions fighting against US imperial terror in Iran.
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Old 05-07-2018, 06:53 PM
 
Location: Cebu, Philippines
4,364 posts, read 1,657,079 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
Iranians didn't revolt because they were poor uneducated savages like you've been lead to believe.

There were many different factions fighting against US imperial terror in Iran.
Correct. Turkey will become another Iran only if the US goes in and appoints and arms a brutal dictator and divides the country into warring factions.
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Old 05-10-2018, 07:43 PM
 
2,776 posts, read 1,010,852 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
Iranians didn't revolt because they were poor uneducated savages like you've been lead to believe.

There were many different factions fighting against US imperial terror in Iran.
You mean the Shah?

Is that why Iran had the second highest GDP growth during the Pahlavi dynasty?

Why is it that most Persians I've met abroad long for the days of the Shah? Some even proclaim Ali Reza as the new heir to the throne.
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