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Old 07-26-2018, 11:42 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,366 posts, read 19,297,224 times
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China's government clearly stated that democracy is not what the country wants.
And when I look at the US for instance, I agree with them that that kind of democracy is not the way to go.
The whole idea of political parties promising things in order to increase their market shares, which of course makes them very vulnerable to manipulation, corruption etc.
Not to mention the dictatorship of the mob.
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Old 07-26-2018, 12:06 PM
 
1,089 posts, read 477,070 times
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Any credible source indicates there are Chinese persons wanting European or Japanese colonial rules?
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Old 07-26-2018, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Florida -
8,760 posts, read 10,832,098 times
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In modern times, colonialism would be regarded as 'occupation' and unlikely to succeed. In contrast, the U.S. has attempted to "buy" many countries and governments ... with almost predictable results. Instead of becoming 'westernized,' these regimes, etc. become the "best friends money can buy" and inevitably wind-up hating and ousting us.

Had China been colonized in the past, they may have become more democratic or capitalistic, but, the jury is still somewhat 'out' on those relatively new-fangled experiments. In contrast, one wonders where the U.S. will be in 3000-4000 years ... and where China will be in another 100-200 years (?).
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Old 07-26-2018, 12:45 PM
 
12,258 posts, read 18,393,933 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
That's Western nonsense. The number of Chinese patents has risen sharply over the years. No wonder, they are producing an army of engineers each year and they are among the most intelligent humans, like all East Asians. .
No, in terms of China stealing IPs, it is not "western nonsense".

China has there own patent office but I assume you mean US patent office. Chinese businesses (which in essence means the Chinese government) apply for US patents so their product can be sold in the US. Indeed they are exploding in number. OK fair enough, China has grown tremendously in the last 2 decades. But a number of these are now found to be fraudulent - fictitious addresses, fictitious data, altered pictures and diagrams of product, etc. Many of these are just Chinese knockoff's of western consumer goods- fake watches, fake binoculours, fake guitars, etc. Just garbage.

https://www.business-standard.com/ar...0600740_1.html

Again, I have first hand knowledge of this. I go to China and fell like I am James Bond just trying to avoid government survelance and protecting my companies IP. I have enough spyware on my PC where they are reading this thread right now likely (and there goes my 10 year business visa). I fight with my national employees out there - they have two employees there 1.) the government, 2.) my company. Trust me my company comes second. No this is not western nonsense. Like I said this is there bread and butter, forget about communism vs. capitalism, that's last centuries debate. They have another identity - mercantilism.
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Old 07-26-2018, 01:02 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,366 posts, read 19,297,224 times
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IP theft is just a small part of the picture.
Huawei for instance is a respected company here in Europe (we don't try to oppress them for bogus reasons like the US does) and they are very innovative.
https://www.zdnet.com/article/huawei...e-epo-in-2017/

Also, I don't get that whole whining about IP theft. Western companies have to decide what they want. Either they go to China because it is a giant market but also have to live with IP theft, or they play it safe and stay out of China. But Americans and Europeans are both greedy and stingy. They just want to benefit from China, but not make sacrifices.

Plus, China has an old tradition of copying, unlike in the West copying is not considered negative in China, it is a compliment. By the way, that is probably how it was around the world for a long time, before someone came up with the idea of a patent, which is now being abused to keep developing countries and even small developers in developed countries down.

Since China is still a developing country, I find it acceptable that they do everything they can to get back to the top again, where they already were like 1000 or 1500 years ago when they already were the factory of the world.
In view of the patent and copyright mania I actually recommend IP theft, pirating and industrial espionage to all developing countries. Once they have caught up, they no longer need to, obviously. But the West wants to benefit from China by dumping all their **** there and dominating the Chinese market before the Chinese have a chance to develop their own companies, i.e. the West is trying to keep China down. I applaud the Chinese for not allowing themselves to be exploited. One can't catch up to the top anymore without IP theft, reverse engineering etc. And that's the fault of Europe, the US, and Japan with their efforts to stifle the competition and dominate the world, for instance through mini patents that are almost impossible not to infringe.

Last edited by Neuling; 07-26-2018 at 01:35 PM..
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Old 07-26-2018, 02:03 PM
 
6,722 posts, read 6,599,126 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6oo9 View Post
Any credible source indicates there are Chinese persons wanting European or Japanese colonial rules?
Next to zero people in China think so.
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Old 07-26-2018, 02:49 PM
 
12,258 posts, read 18,393,933 times
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Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
Next to zero people in China think so.
I'm overwhelmed with confusion on the Japan statement by the OP. I'm baffled.

Japan murdered some 10 million Chinese civilians in WW2, these are not battle deaths but in executions of women, children, and the elderly in the most brutal and sickening way possible. We can also attribute the rape, slavery, looting, and forced prostitution that occurred to the population of China by the occupying Japanese Imperial Army.

That's something that is not quickly forgiven or forgotten. No, I very much doubt the Chinese population looks back fondly at that period of colonization by Japan.
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Old 07-26-2018, 05:59 PM
 
1,099 posts, read 1,667,688 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeinChina View Post
Hong Kong. Its an excellent example of how basically the same group of people, Chinese in genealogy, went on two very different paths. Hong Kong was ruled by the Brits, and had a democracy for decades (albeit not always treated as equals) and had access to better education, open information that wasn't controlled by the gov't, and so on. If you today, can't see the difference in mentality between Mainland Chinese )even from the biggest cities) compare to Hong Kong locals, then you just don't understand and need to experience it for yourself.


Taiwan, esp Taipei is another great example of Chinese going on two different paths. Taiwan more so with outside influence with many Taiwan leaders being educated in the U.S. and then in the 50's setting up a democratic system.

The entire Korean peninsula, both present-day North and South Korea, was a colony of Japan. The disparity between the economies of both North and South Korea now shows that being a colony of Japan is not what brought about prosperity in the South. Suggesting that Japanese rule was somehow good for Korea is one of the easiest ways of making enemies with Koreans.
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Old 07-26-2018, 07:10 PM
 
Location: Boston, MA
1,854 posts, read 3,416,822 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeinChina View Post
Hong Kong. Its an excellent example of how basically the same group of people, Chinese in genealogy, went on two very different paths. Hong Kong was ruled by the Brits, and had a democracy for decades (albeit not always treated as equals) and had access to better education, open information that wasn't controlled by the gov't, and so on. If you today, can't see the difference in mentality between Mainland Chinese )even from the biggest cities) compare to Hong Kong locals, then you just don't understand and need to experience it for yourself.


Taiwan, esp Taipei is another great example of Chinese going on two different paths. Taiwan more so with outside influence with many Taiwan leaders being educated in the U.S. and then in the 50's setting up a democratic system.
I think you are confusing democracy with freedom or liberty. They are actually two different things whichever way you want to define them. Hong Kong had no democracy during its 156 years as a British crown colony because no one was allowed to vote for the Hong Kong governor or the council but its people had a high degree of freedom to live their lives as they please with minimal interference from the government. The press was free and people generally were allowed to speak as they wish with exceptions of course such as insulting the British monarch or advocating the overthrow of the government but then any country would forcefully suppress such talk including the U.S.

Taiwan and Taipei (which for a long time was a separate administrative entity from Taiwan Province, not sure if it is still is), the remaining portions of China controlled by the Republic of China (R.O.C.) government after 1949, were democratic as early as the 1950's insofar that elections were held and people technically had the right to choose whichever candidate they wanted. The reality was though that there was still one party (Guomindang or Chinese Nationalist Party) rule and Chiang Kai Shek's supporters made sure he won election after election with a combination of both persuasive and intimidating tactics. How do you think he won all of the elections of 1954, 1960, 1966, and 1972 and the Guomindang ruling with an iron fist until 1987 and not holding free elections until 1995? Freedom of speech and press was also seriously curtailed even if not at the levels of the People's Republic though some highly sensitive topics such as Taiwan independence or support for leftists often meant a long prison term in the R.O.C's notoriously harsh prisons such as Green Island. So the R.O.C. after 1948-49 was a democracy on paper but in reality it was more of a right wing authoritarian dictatorship that only gradually gave way to true democracy after 1987.

Now economically you could argue that both Taiwan and Hong Kong (throw in Macau too) were macro-economically better off than Mainland China for a long time because they had bigger industries and much foreign investment. Dig deeper into the micro-economic level though, you will find it took years of financial and economic struggle for them to lift the majority of people out of poverty. My mother grew up in postwar Hong Kong in a family of 8 children (yes very large families were the norm back then) and neither she nor most of her siblings finished secondary school but that was actually common during that generation. The British didn't really contribute much to education reform until at least the 1970's and you can argue they couldn't because Great Britain itself was rebuilding from WWII destruction and had no money to spare. Credit the various Christian missionary groups, aid societies, and even the Chinese Guomindang who ran schools in Hong Kong at that time for filling the gap.

Last edited by Urban Peasant; 07-26-2018 at 07:27 PM..
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Old 07-26-2018, 07:24 PM
 
Location: Honolulu, HI
6,105 posts, read 1,824,910 times
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Colonization works for some countries (Singapore, Hong Kong) and not others (every country in Africa).

But the notion that China is innovative is laughable as well, they steal everything they have then build upon it. Japan is innovative, hell South Korea is innovative, China is not innovative.

And the notion that China would let Europe or Japan colonize them is equally laughable. China would declare WW3 and start dropping nukes before letting any country attempt to colonize them ever again. They're just itching for a reason to avenge what Japan did during their invassion and Nanking Massacre.

Japan has a very advanced country after implementing westernization and modernization with no colonization but they were complete psychopaths during WW2 when they went on their colonization quest. They would colonize you, then rape, torture, and murder everyone in sight so they certainly don't have any argument to colonize anyone ever again.

But on another note the modern world is done with colonization. If someone suggests America or Britain colonize parts of Africa to modernize them then the world would be outraged. So all these 3rd world countries and failed states should be left to their own devices because any intervention is assumed to be "disastrous, exploitative, and racist."

Last edited by Rocko20; 07-26-2018 at 07:34 PM..
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