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Old 07-25-2018, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Tulsa
1,800 posts, read 803,616 times
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This is a very controversial topic in China.

A lot of intellectuals in China believe that China would be much better if it had been colonized by some western country or Japan for an extended period of time. That would be the best and fastest way for China to catch up with the rest of the world. Actually, communism was imported to China from Germany, which is totally foreign to traditional Chinese culture too. So colonization wouldn't be worse than that.

Others argue that most former colonies are still stuck in third world status, for instance, India is even poorer than China, Mexico isn't much better than China, Zimbabwe is a mess.

However, it probably makes more sense to compare China(mainland) to Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Singapore where ethnic Chinese is the majority. Hong Kong and Singapore were colonized by the British, Taiwan was colonized by the Dutch and Japan.

What do you think?
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Old 07-25-2018, 11:07 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,771 posts, read 5,114,752 times
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Oh this is gonna be good.
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Old 07-25-2018, 04:48 PM
 
6,722 posts, read 6,597,578 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodHombre View Post
This is a very controversial topic in China.

A lot of intellectuals in China believe that China would be much better if it had been colonized by some western country or Japan for an extended period of time. That would be the best and fastest way for China to catch up with the rest of the world. Actually, communism was imported to China from Germany, which is totally foreign to traditional Chinese culture too. So colonization wouldn't be worse than that.

Others argue that most former colonies are still stuck in third world status, for instance, India is even poorer than China, Mexico isn't much better than China, Zimbabwe is a mess.

However, it probably makes more sense to compare China(mainland) to Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Singapore where ethnic Chinese is the majority. Hong Kong and Singapore were colonized by the British, Taiwan was colonized by the Dutch and Japan.

What do you think?
What do you mean by "a lot of intellectuals in China"? I know Liu Xiaobo had this kind of opinions and he is the only (famous) one. Most Chinese intellectuals are nationalist to some extent and will never say such things.

Northeast China (Manchuria) had been colonized by Japan too, and it is not doing well now. The economically advanced provinces of China such as Jiangsu, Zhejiang, and Guangdong do not have colonization history.
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Old 07-25-2018, 06:47 PM
 
Location: Macao
15,943 posts, read 36,139,074 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodHombre View Post
This is a very controversial topic in China.

A lot of intellectuals in China believe that China would be much better if it had been colonized by some western country or Japan for an extended period of time. That would be the best and fastest way for China to catch up with the rest of the world. Actually, communism was imported to China from Germany, which is totally foreign to traditional Chinese culture too. So colonization wouldn't be worse than that.

Others argue that most former colonies are still stuck in third world status, for instance, India is even poorer than China, Mexico isn't much better than China, Zimbabwe is a mess.

However, it probably makes more sense to compare China(mainland) to Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Singapore where ethnic Chinese is the majority. Hong Kong and Singapore were colonized by the British, Taiwan was colonized by the Dutch and Japan.

What do you think?
What are they supposed to catch up to? They've already surpassed the United States, particularly in manufacturing and infrastructure.

The U.S. can barely put enough money together to build a subway system...many cities have no metro system whatsoever in the U.S. Meanwhile, China is building infrastructure throughout Africa, and throughout Asia all the way to Europe....just to move their products. They have already built bullet trains throughout, and all of the main cities have subway systems throughout their own country that rival the ones found in Japan - U.S. doesn't have a single bullet train, not even from NYC to DC.

The U.S. is involved with Trade Wars, where they are giving 12 billion dollars to farmers in a socialized state system to offset more bad decisions by the U.S. We can't even move our farm products in the U.S., and they are still trying to build up old industries like coal in a world market that is moving towards much more advanced energy technologies and products.

If you're hoping for a world for China to 'catch up' to the U.S., you can rest assured, they've already surpassed it. The only thing the U.S. has going at the moment is the war-related technologies (bombs, tanks, guns) and pharmaceuticals.
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Old 07-25-2018, 07:33 PM
 
Location: Boston, MA
1,853 posts, read 3,415,954 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer View Post
What are they supposed to catch up to? They've already surpassed the United States, particularly in manufacturing and infrastructure.

The U.S. can barely put enough money together to build a subway system...many cities have no metro system whatsoever in the U.S. Meanwhile, China is building infrastructure throughout Africa, and throughout Asia all the way to Europe....just to move their products. They have already built bullet trains throughout, and all of the main cities have subway systems throughout their own country that rival the ones found in Japan - U.S. doesn't have a single bullet train, not even from NYC to DC.

The U.S. is involved with Trade Wars, where they are giving 12 billion dollars to farmers in a socialized state system to offset more bad decisions by the U.S. We can't even move our farm products in the U.S., and they are still trying to build up old industries like coal in a world market that is moving towards much more advanced energy technologies and products.

If you're hoping for a world for China to 'catch up' to the U.S., you can rest assured, they've already surpassed it. The only thing the U.S. has going at the moment is the war-related technologies (bombs, tanks, guns) and pharmaceuticals.
It's like a flip has switched and the U.S. traded places with China. It wasn't too long ago that China was a lot more backwards and outdated than the U.S. From Emperor Qian Long's reign at the end of 18th century to pretty much the 1990's, China was an economic backwater. I studied Chinese history in college and we read a book by historian Jonathan Spence titled The Search for Modern China in which the emperor (I forgot whom) scoffed at Western inventions such as the compass or the telegraph machine saying China existed for thousands of years without the need for such stupid things. China at the time was a proud, arrogant, imbecilic and at the same time economically declining kingdom. People had nothing to eat and government officials squandered away public taxpayer money on opium and other vices. Meanwhile the U.S. during the same time was building railroads, canals, industrial mills, and paved roadways and much of the work was done by hardworking immigrants including you guessed it, ethnic Chinese! Trains and railroads were so new and unheard of to most Chinese during that period that the word they ascribed to it, huoche or "fire vehicle" still applies nowadays even when most trains are now powered by electricity in China.

But as the Chinese idiom goes "Blue extracts from indigo", the pioneers who first built these things (i.e. the Americans) have become too lazy and complacent to improve their inventions and are being surpassed by the knowledge and money hungry pupils (i.e. the Chinese) who learned from the masters but are now the new innovators.

Back to the original topic, no I don't think China could have been any better if a foreign power fully colonized it. The unequal treaties were the closest thing to colonizing China and they were bad enough. There are still vestiges of that past in China today. And I can't see how Japan as a foreign power could have improved China nor do I believe Chinese scholars actually saying this. Japan would probably have wiped out half the Chinese population and repopulated the land with ethnic Japanese had they not been stopped during the Second World War.
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Old 07-25-2018, 09:10 PM
 
Location: Earth
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japan might do it again if we let them. Of course, they would then come for us. They are the british of asia.


I think the japanese would like the floor with PLA honestly.
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Old 07-25-2018, 09:12 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
9,557 posts, read 2,641,528 times
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No. Geographic realities have doomed China no matter would have happened back then.
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Old 07-25-2018, 09:19 PM
 
Location: Earth
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Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
No. Geographic realities have doomed China no matter would have happened back then.

China also does not innovate
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Old 07-25-2018, 10:01 PM
 
652 posts, read 581,038 times
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The people of China would be much more aware of the outside world, less ignorant and society would function better if China was colonized instead of the Communists taking over in 1949. The education system would be better, the healthcare (although its not terribly bad now) would be better, and you would have less of a population if it weren't for some of Mao's policies (although some of his policies did kill millions as well).


That being said, you would not have as much development in China like you have now because you may have democracy, which slows things down compared to a one party system.


That's just my opinion but I can see a good argurment the other way which I would respect. The Communist party did take hundreds of millions of people out of poverty, which perhaps would not have happened outside of a one party system. Take a look as India and see how that's working out with a democracy.
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Old 07-25-2018, 10:15 PM
 
Location: Earth
4,508 posts, read 3,090,953 times
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India would have been worse off under dictatorship like china's. Pakistan and Bangladesh had dictatorships and they went backwards.


China was lucky because they had deng xiaoping and american elites were stupid to think that giving china technology, IP, trade, and money would make china democratize.


eventually the ccp will lose their mandate from heaven just like every other dynasty. They just abolished term limits. There goes the ccp's justification for stability.
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