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Old 10-10-2018, 05:19 AM
 
4,665 posts, read 2,636,371 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cebuan View Post
The reason socialist regimes have that track record is that they have always had to wrest power from entrenched plutocrats with the use of force.

Most modern capitalist countries are also in poverty and heavily indebted to smiling capitalists.
What is poverty though, more people then any other time in history have access to clean water, food, stable living environments, etc. My family comes from China and Mexico, both countries have improved massive amounts since they have adopted more market economies. People often forget how left wing Mexico used to be.

The problem people neglect is that any form of government requires good leadership, a capitalist country, a mixed country, or a communist country will all be crap with bad leadership. The problem with communism is that its always crap, even with good leadership. The good news is, put a good honest leader in a communist country and they will reform it to a market economy. Thats exactly what happened in China, Mexico, Costa Rica, etc.
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Old 10-10-2018, 05:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
It’s a statistical fact.

Though a lot of totalitarians claim to be Marxist but actually aren’t.
Yeah, it's better to admire only the totalitarians who were true Marxists.
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Old 10-10-2018, 07:45 AM
 
Location: Manchester NH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattks View Post
What is poverty though, more people then any other time in history have access to clean water, food, stable living environments, etc. My family comes from China and Mexico, both countries have improved massive amounts since they have adopted more market economies. People often forget how left wing Mexico used to be.

The problem people neglect is that any form of government requires good leadership, a capitalist country, a mixed country, or a communist country will all be crap with bad leadership. The problem with communism is that its always crap, even with good leadership. The good news is, put a good honest leader in a communist country and they will reform it to a market economy. Thats exactly what happened in China, Mexico, Costa Rica, etc.
Market capitalism is not the way to benefit society, it is just a tool to manage capital away from the hands of the masses while letting them believe they have control over their own labor (they donít).

Itís efficient to keep control in the hands of the plutocrats but not sustainable, especially with its requirement to maximize production for all purposes.

If you take away political authoritarianism from socialism and allow the workers to control the means of production society would not only be more egalitarian, but also happy and successful.
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Old 10-10-2018, 07:46 AM
 
Location: Manchester NH
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Originally Posted by bowlines View Post
Yeah, it's better to admire only the totalitarians who were true Marxists.
Yeah, like Thomas Sankara.

Iím not an authoritarian though.
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Old 10-10-2018, 08:57 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
Market capitalism is not the way to benefit society, it is just a tool to manage capital away from the hands of the masses while letting them believe they have control over their own labor (they donít).

Itís efficient to keep control in the hands of the plutocrats but not sustainable, especially with its requirement to maximize production for all purposes.

If you take away political authoritarianism from socialism and allow the workers to control the means of production society would not only be more egalitarian, but also happy and successful.
It absolutely benefits society. Everyone is rewarded by their work through wages. Those who create work are rewarded more. If one wants better wages they can either work more, create work, or educate themselves to get better work.

Before people start going nuts, I fully support minimum wages, social security, and nearly all labor laws. I support most welfare and social security. I think one would be hard pressed to find a capitalist who doesnt.

I know who are an anarchist, and support peacefully dissolving the state, but there are already threads for that. Marxism does not call for the dissolution of the state.

In the end, I dont believe China will return to Maoism like it was in the past, it will continue its path to a free market society like it laid out in its long term economic plan. The road will be bumpy, but they have a lot to do and changing too fast isnt good either. Slow steady changes are the way to keep stability.
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Old 10-10-2018, 09:40 AM
 
Location: Manchester NH
9,561 posts, read 2,641,528 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattks View Post
It absolutely benefits society. Everyone is rewarded by their work through wages. Those who create work are rewarded more. If one wants better wages they can either work more, create work, or educate themselves to get better work.

Before people start going nuts, I fully support minimum wages, social security, and nearly all labor laws. I support most welfare and social security. I think one would be hard pressed to find a capitalist who doesnt.

I know who are an anarchist, and support peacefully dissolving the state, but there are already threads for that. Marxism does not call for the dissolution of the state.

In the end, I dont believe China will return to Maoism like it was in the past, it will continue its path to a free market society like it laid out in its long term economic plan. The road will be bumpy, but they have a lot to do and changing too fast isnt good either. Slow steady changes are the way to keep stability.
Doesnít seem China is goin in that direction, they are nationalizing more industries and most of the growth right now is happening in state owned companies. I think itís a good thing because allowing late stage capitalism to set in where private corporations own the majority of the capital means all production will be done for the purpose of individual and often times contradictory benefits.

Now at least the government can stop or control production to benefit society instead of some individuals. That being said Xi is corrupt beyond reason so he may get selfish and order state enterprises to benefit himself and party elites.

Will see what happens.
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Old 10-10-2018, 11:00 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
Yeah, like Thomas Sankara.

Iím not an authoritarian though.
For sure, no one likes an authoritarian totalitarian. You are more into the casual, benevolent totalitarians of history. Due process, free press, torture and execution of political enemies...these things are not important.
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Old 10-10-2018, 12:03 PM
 
4,665 posts, read 2,636,371 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
Doesnít seem China is goin in that direction, they are nationalizing more industries and most of the growth right now is happening in state owned companies. I think itís a good thing because allowing late stage capitalism to set in where private corporations own the majority of the capital means all production will be done for the purpose of individual and often times contradictory benefits.

Now at least the government can stop or control production to benefit society instead of some individuals. That being said Xi is corrupt beyond reason so he may get selfish and order state enterprises to benefit himself and party elites.

Will see what happens.
Most corporations are already state owned in China and were never privately owned. The Chinese state corporations are massive and have deep pockets. The are awash in corruption and take advantage of their ties to the government to take advantage of other countries. The leaders of those companies skim as much money as possible and then bolt the country, mostly to the US, Canada, and Australia.

In what possible situation would the government stop or control production be a positive for society, for the workers? I thought you wanted the workers to have control of their work environment? Thats not what China is promoting with their state enterprises. In fact the working conditions are not ideal... China is combining the worst aspects of capitalism and communism.
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Old 10-10-2018, 12:54 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
9,561 posts, read 2,641,528 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattks View Post
Most corporations are already state owned in China and were never privately owned. The Chinese state corporations are massive and have deep pockets. The are awash in corruption and take advantage of their ties to the government to take advantage of other countries. The leaders of those companies skim as much money as possible and then bolt the country, mostly to the US, Canada, and Australia.

In what possible situation would the government stop or control production be a positive for society, for the workers? I thought you wanted the workers to have control of their work environment? Thats not what China is promoting with their state enterprises. In fact the working conditions are not ideal... China is combining the worst aspects of capitalism and communism.
No, I donít want what China is doing, but I was thinking if production was controlled by political motivations, it would be controlled in such a way that the masses benefit (since politicians exist off of god will) instead of personal profit.

In general Iím against it though.
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Old 10-10-2018, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
9,561 posts, read 2,641,528 times
Reputation: 2541
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowlines View Post
For sure, no one likes an authoritarian totalitarian. You are more into the casual, benevolent totalitarians of history. Due process, free press, torture and execution of political enemies...these things are not important.
Lies, I care about freedom more than any capitalist.
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