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Old 11-24-2018, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Earth
4,509 posts, read 3,092,720 times
Reputation: 3355

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mofford View Post
Stands to reason when you have a crap load of people that need transportation, and your skies are choked with pollution, that everyone using cars is not going to work. The roads would all have to be 8 lane freeways to handle the traffic, too expensive, add to that, personal income levels are not high enough for the average Chinese person to afford a car. And many who would buy a car would get one of the models with zero safety equipment and accident deaths would be astronomical. It makes sense for them to invest in mass transit.

However, from my American perspective, there is no greater feeling of freedom and independence, than owning your own car and driving wherever you want, whenever you want. In America, the problem nobody wants to talk about with public transportation is the awkward or unpleasant social situations you can get into. The airlines are about the only example left of Americans having to deal with other people when traveling, the freaks, rude people, loud people, drunk people, scary people, smelly people. Everyone hates flying for that reason. Americans hate that, they want private compartments with a lock on the door so they can sit in peace and quiet. When the airlines, train and bus companies figure that out, you will see a great resurgence in public transportation. Those compartments also have to be comfortable, solid, have a window, and preferably have a little TV/monitor with internet access. Should have a decent sound system that won't disturb the passenger in the next compartment.

There is no greater feeling of freedom and independence when you have financial independence. The still needs fuel, you have to park, and can get a ticket from the cops.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ObserverJC View Post
Why invest in public transportation when it is cheaper and more convenient to buy your own cars?

Although I believe US should invest more in public transportation, the convenience provided by car ownership makes it a hard sale to many Americans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ObserverJC View Post
I doubt most Americans would be able to or want to pay for that kind of services.

I want more passenger rail.
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Old 11-24-2018, 01:56 PM
 
1,374 posts, read 632,466 times
Reputation: 1072
Quote:
Originally Posted by mofford View Post
Stands to reason when you have a crap load of people that need transportation, and your skies are choked with pollution, that everyone using cars is not going to work. The roads would all have to be 8 lane freeways to handle the traffic, too expensive, add to that, personal income levels are not high enough for the average Chinese person to afford a car. And many who would buy a car would get one of the models with zero safety equipment and accident deaths would be astronomical. It makes sense for them to invest in mass transit.

However, from my American perspective, there is no greater feeling of freedom and independence, than owning your own car and driving wherever you want, whenever you want. In America, the problem nobody wants to talk about with public transportation is the awkward or unpleasant social situations you can get into. The airlines are about the only example left of Americans having to deal with other people when traveling, the freaks, rude people, loud people, drunk people, scary people, smelly people. Everyone hates flying for that reason. Americans hate that, they want private compartments with a lock on the door so they can sit in peace and quiet. When the airlines, train and bus companies figure that out, you will see a great resurgence in public transportation. Those compartments also have to be comfortable, solid, have a window, and preferably have a little TV/monitor with internet access. Should have a decent sound system that won't disturb the passenger in the next compartment.
I am surprised while everyone hates flying yet they seem to allow the airlines to get that bad by continuing to feed them at least within the US. If people boycotted the airlines and their flying police state just for one day. Things would be very different. As the airlines would immediately realize they would go out of business and change their business models to treating people like people rather than cargo.

Of course I do notice a notable decline in quality of business and customer relations these days compared to before in all industries.

Interestingly people don't seem to smell too bad on Chinese public transit despite how a number of older Chinese don't have good hygiene skills and fail to bathe or wash clothes regularly, or sometimes even brush before they leave home in the morning, and how the streets and WCs are super filthy in China however it appears subways and high speed rail systems are super clean compared to ones in the US.
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Old 11-24-2018, 02:35 PM
 
6,722 posts, read 6,599,126 times
Reputation: 2386
In America everything is driven by business.
In China many if not most public transportation systems do not make profits, from city buses to trains. The government subsidizes them.
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Old 11-24-2018, 04:25 PM
 
Location: Iowa
2,773 posts, read 3,070,233 times
Reputation: 3400
Quote:
Originally Posted by citizensadvocate View Post
I am surprised while everyone hates flying yet they seem to allow the airlines to get that bad by continuing to feed them at least within the US. If people boycotted the airlines and their flying police state just for one day. Things would be very different. As the airlines would immediately realize they would go out of business and change their business models to treating people like people rather than cargo.

Of course I do notice a notable decline in quality of business and customer relations these days compared to before in all industries.

Interestingly people don't seem to smell too bad on Chinese public transit despite how a number of older Chinese don't have good hygiene skills and fail to bathe or wash clothes regularly, or sometimes even brush before they leave home in the morning, and how the streets and WCs are super filthy in China however it appears subways and high speed rail systems are super clean compared to ones in the US.
Well, I would expect Chinese society, and most East Asia countries in general (not India), to be orderly and have better conduct than what you see in the US. But I have also heard Chinese tourists can tend to be very rude when they travel out of the country, so I don't know what they act like towards each other on public transportation.

Can't say as I would have a lot of confidence riding the NYC subway system at night, or any time to be truthful. I know the city crime stats have improved, but you still have hood rats all over the place, spray painting everything with graffiti, and hanging around intimidating people. You have crazy people talking to themselves, and a whole lot of weird stuff going on. I think this is pretty common for any public transportation systems in the US. I think the compartment idea would work, they should come in different sizes and amenities, you get what you pay for. There should be an attendant working the plane, train or bus to make sure the bathrooms are OK and to check your compartment when you leave, and add extra charges if you messed up the bathroom or the compartment. Some compartments could be stacked horizontal tubes like those econo-pod hotel things they have in Japan, for sleeping. You lay down and it has a TV on the ceiling with climate controls.

Think of how much easier it would be to get school bus drivers if they had compartments for each kid and they couldn't talk to each other and raise hell. From a social perspective, nothing good ever happened to an American kid on a school bus, and when they grow up, most Americans probably do not ever want to ride another bus again, bad memories, lol. We should change that. Compartments.


And I was going to reply to the other poster about costs of our local bus system in Des Moines, only 26% of the budget comes from fares, the rest comes from property taxes, and federal and state funds. I think most American city bus systems are funded more from public funds than the fares they take in.
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Old 11-24-2018, 04:46 PM
 
20,708 posts, read 13,727,285 times
Reputation: 14382
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangerous-Boy View Post
they also stole the technology from siemens

Not exactly "stole", but *forced* or *required* would be more of an accurate description of what went down.
https://www.railway-technology.com/f...olicy-5748075/


As with nearly everything else when a company wants to do business with an entity of Chinese government (of which the HSR and nearly all else falls under due to the state owning pretty much everything in whole or part), the foreign business must agree to "transfer" certain technology to the Chinese.


Following the long established road of Japan, Korea, and other Asian nations China took the technology they "stole" or otherwise acquired and made it better. So much so that Chinese HSR trains are now *better* than Siemens units from Germany. The other well worn reason is also true here; China can produce products (for a host or reasons) far cheaper than industries in the West.


https://www.dw.com/en/sierens-china-...ens/a-18480773
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Old 11-24-2018, 06:48 PM
 
Location: On the road
5,922 posts, read 2,885,080 times
Reputation: 11308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
In China many if not most public transportation systems do not make profits, from city buses to trains. The government subsidizes them.
They also have a huge advantage in one of the most problematic parts of rail development in USA = land. In USA it's expensive and time consuming process to obtain land in a corridor across the country and through a city. In China if there is a village in the way those folks need to start packing because it's not slowing down the rail line progress.
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Old 11-24-2018, 06:57 PM
 
Location: Seattle Area
700 posts, read 142,017 times
Reputation: 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by mofford View Post
Well, I would expect Chinese society, and most East Asia countries in general (not India), to be orderly and have better conduct than what you see in the US. But I have also heard Chinese tourists can tend to be very rude when they travel out of the country, so I don't know what they act like towards each other on public transportation.

Can't say as I would have a lot of confidence riding the NYC subway system at night, or any time to be truthful. I know the city crime stats have improved, but you still have hood rats all over the place, spray painting everything with graffiti, and hanging around intimidating people. You have crazy people talking to themselves, and a whole lot of weird stuff going on. I think this is pretty common for any public transportation systems in the US. I think the compartment idea would work, they should come in different sizes and amenities, you get what you pay for. There should be an attendant working the plane, train or bus to make sure the bathrooms are OK and to check your compartment when you leave, and add extra charges if you messed up the bathroom or the compartment. Some compartments could be stacked horizontal tubes like those econo-pod hotel things they have in Japan, for sleeping. You lay down and it has a TV on the ceiling with climate controls.

Think of how much easier it would be to get school bus drivers if they had compartments for each kid and they couldn't talk to each other and raise hell. From a social perspective, nothing good ever happened to an American kid on a school bus, and when they grow up, most Americans probably do not ever want to ride another bus again, bad memories, lol. We should change that. Compartments.


And I was going to reply to the other poster about costs of our local bus system in Des Moines, only 26% of the budget comes from fares, the rest comes from property taxes, and federal and state funds. I think most American city bus systems are funded more from public funds than the fares they take in.
IMO, the best and most effective way to reduce crime is to abolish the second amendment or at least make changes that demand extensive background checks. The USA has one of the highest (if not the highest) homicide rates of any developed country and gun ownership is the main reason.

Compartments for trains could work because they take longer to arrive to the destination. However, even airplanes don't have compartments for economy class, and most airplanes don't have compartments for first class either. Maybe trains should have compartments for the very rich, but that's it.

Compartments for buses would just take too much space. The busier buses in the Seattle area during peak hours are crowded enough already, especially with the low frequency of buses here. Once time a driver told me I couldn't go on the bus because it was full. It doesn't compare to buses in China, but Seattle has a smaller population than Chinese cities, and a much smaller percentage of people use the bus. Adding compartments just unnecessarily reduces space.

School buses should not have compartments. Lack of socialization would do more harm than good. It would also take too much space, and thus more buses and therefore more drivers are needed.

Overall, I'd say the main problem with public transportation here is that the American culture values individualism, and that means people drive their own cars. Also, American cities have too much suburban sprawl, and this requires a lot of buses/trains to connect the people. People also tend to live in the suburbs because the urban area generally has more crime, and this goes back to my first point of trying to reduce crime. Finally, lack of government subsidies are another problem. It doesn't matter if only 26% of the budget comes from fares. More government subsidies will mean more public transportation is possible, no matter what percentage of the budget comes from fares.
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Old 11-24-2018, 08:00 PM
 
Location: Tucson AZ & Leipzig, Germany
2,369 posts, read 7,758,843 times
Reputation: 3552
Quote:
Originally Posted by lieqiang View Post
They also have a huge advantage in one of the most problematic parts of rail development in USA = land. In USA it's expensive and time consuming process to obtain land in a corridor across the country and through a city. In China if there is a village in the way those folks need to start packing because it's not slowing down the rail line progress.
This is the absolute truth. In the USA, the legal and right of way process to establish a new high speed rail route would take longer than the actual design and construction of the rail line. It might also cost more than the cost of building the high speed rail line. China has the full power of the state to clear a route for a high speed rail line. There may or may not be compensation for property taken, and the compensation might not add up to what the private property was worth.
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Old 11-25-2018, 02:52 AM
 
Location: Honolulu
1,068 posts, read 1,468,115 times
Reputation: 2346
Quote:
Originally Posted by QIDb602 View Post
China values social benefits over money, yet their economy has grown tremendously over the same 10 years of building high-speed rail. Social benefits will be more important in the long run!

Also, part of the reason why is due to China's communism. Communism is able to make decisions quicker and also bring a larger work force.
No way do I agree with China valuing social benefits over money. So many from high ranking officials to the urban grandmother value money over all else. Just look at the skies in your average Chinese city. Rampant corruption is a way of life there, not anything surprising. I've seen first hand how Chinese put money over everything else. And while I know humans around the world are inherently selfish, in China it's just a given. Selfishness if a necessary survival skill there. If they don't build trains, the populace will revolt (okay maybe not literally). Ever seen how densely populated the cities are there compared to the US? Just think of all those people needing to travel long distances. That's why they build high speed trains, out of near necessity.
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Old 11-25-2018, 05:39 AM
 
Location: On the road
5,922 posts, read 2,885,080 times
Reputation: 11308
The worst thing about China's rail system are the passengers.

When I'm in the terminal area buying tickets (laowai cannot use the automated machines) there are usually really long lines at each window, yet people just keep on cutting to the front. It's so frustrating, in USA there would be a fist fight but in China people usually don't say anything. Some stations have a metal corral system with one-way turnstiles to prevent this, many do not. Then you're at the platform and again people have formed lines at each marker on the concrete where you board the train when it arrives, but sure enough despite 10 people being in a queue some people will walk arrive up and stand next to the person first in line. Then you're onboard and nobody wants to use headphones so it's a competing cacophony of noises from video games, videos, etc. and folks who didn't get a seat near their family are going to come squat in the aisle near them for hours.

Don't get me started on the metro in cities out west where the barrier for entry is much lower, then you've got aunties shoving you, parents letting their kids pee on the floor of the train car, and people spitting. There also always seems to be some country looking dude carrying a large item, I have no idea why. He's either got a huge piece of wood, or four buckets of something, or large sacks, etc. and he's always getting on or off past you.

I love China, but damn can it be frustrating.
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