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View Poll Results: Do you consider Philippine people Hispanic?
Yes 44 7.01%
Semi-Hispanic 143 22.77%
Not at all 441 70.22%
Voters: 628. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Old 08-31-2014, 05:40 PM
 
Location: In the heights
22,174 posts, read 23,698,700 times
Reputation: 11633

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SK Brown. View Post
My friend, CULTURE IS ONE THING, RACE IS ANOTHER.
Don't mix magnesium with gimnasium.

If you want to find out the race count in a place for the the hell of it, is ok, but in terms of culture it won't give you any usable data.

You said:
Remember the US also never succeeded in making English the primary language of the Philippines. The primary language of the vast majority of Filipinos in the Philippines are Filipino languages (albeit with a lot of loanwords). You can make the argument that it was a good thing they weren't as thoroughly culturally exterminated by Europeans as the native cultures of the Americas, but I can see an argument for why someone would wish they had been as thoroughly exterminated and replaced.


But they, tried didn't they?
My ancestors(Mexicans) didn't impose them our culture, they show them the way we do things(good or bad), they took our ways and adopted them.
My ancestors mix with them, laugh, cry, enjoy and many things with them... not the Japanese, not the Americans, only us.
Thats why they are ours as we are theirs, capiche.
Of course it'd give you usable data--it works as a proxy for the degree of penetration into a culture you have. Culture is made up of people and historical demographics would obviously be significant in understanding how a culture has changed.

The point you should probably understand is the colonizers wrecked pretty amazing wrath on the New World in both intentional and unintentional ways. It was a great economic boon for them, so there was a lot of incentive for it to happen. Of course, pre-Columbian people's weren't going to impose their culture on the newly arrived Europeans as there was a huge power differential there and it generally only went the other way around with pre-Columbian influences being done more as either a slow process of reverse osmosis or a faster transfer of immediately usable technologies (especially in terms of agriculture).

Yea, the US tried to impose English over Spanish or Filipino languages. In the end, speakers of Filipino languages were still far more numerous than for either English or Spanish which has been pretty much true for the entire history of the archipelago since it became majority Austronesian. Now, do you wish Europeans had done a more thorough extermination of the native languages more akin to what happened in the Americas? That alternate history would certainly make people much more likely to agree that Filipinos are hispanic which is fantastic.

 
Old 08-31-2014, 07:12 PM
 
Location: In the heights
22,174 posts, read 23,698,700 times
Reputation: 11633
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smtchll View Post
The Spanish missionaries in the Philippines learned the languages of the people instead of teaching the people Spanish. Spanish was the lingua franca of the Philippines though. Filipinos used it as a second or third language to communicate with Filipinos from other regions. This role was replaced by English. If the Americans never took over, Spanish would be the 2nd official language, along with Tagalog. Filipinos simply identify more with their most recent colonizers, the Americans.
Historically, they did try to teach the language, but there were seldom the resources to make Spanish language schools widespread. It was certainly used as a lingua franca, but for a lot of people, there didn't need to be that much communication (since travel wasn't cheap and easy and seldom really necessary for the natives) outside of the immediate and adjacent communities who likely speak the same or similar languages.

Yea, I think if the Americans never took over, Spanish would be the 2nd official language. However, I think it's likely to have still played a secondary role to native languages such as Tagalog. Now is that actually true? No, it's conjecture. Maybe if the Philippines never went to the US, but there was a perceived threat from the US, then maybe Spain would have tried to double down on the Philippines and really push the language through--possibly might have even pushed emigration through as well.

I think there are a lot of ways things could have gone if our jumping off point from reality was as far back as 1898. You can also get a whole other can of worms with the negligible Spanish power at that point probably would have been almost useless in the face of a Japanese invasion and the Japanese during those periods were very keen on near total assimilation. So yea, there's a rich possibility of alternative histories if you really want to pursue it, but there's that discussion and the discussion of what actually happened and where the Philippines stand today.
 
Old 08-31-2014, 07:20 PM
 
Location: Sanjo, Califas.
570 posts, read 371,595 times
Reputation: 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selurong View Post
We don't identify with Hispanics that much anymore because majority of Hispanics don't consider us one of them.
Serulong, the ignorance of the Latinoamericanos is the cause, we have so much problems to solve that we have forgotten that we have a brother across the ocean.
Same with Filipinos in the Us that refuse to be what they really are.

Time and perseverance my friend, we can do it!



I want to show you a FIESTA DE CARNAVAL in San Miguel de Allende Guanajuato were almost half of the population is "gringa", yes, American and Canadian ex pats.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYDAFZsjXac

Last edited by SK Brown.; 08-31-2014 at 07:32 PM..
 
Old 08-31-2014, 07:30 PM
 
Location: Sanjo, Califas.
570 posts, read 371,595 times
Reputation: 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Historically, they did try to teach the language, but there were seldom the resources to make Spanish language schools widespread. It was certainly used as a lingua franca, but for a lot of people, there didn't need to be that much communication (since travel wasn't cheap and easy and seldom really necessary for the natives) outside of the immediate and adjacent communities who likely speak the same or similar languages.

Yea, I think if the Americans never took over, Spanish would be the 2nd official language. However, I think it's likely to have still played a secondary role to native languages such as Tagalog. Now is that actually true? No, it's conjecture. Maybe if the Philippines never went to the US, but there was a perceived threat from the US, then maybe Spain would have tried to double down on the Philippines and really push the language through--possibly might have even pushed emigration through as well.

I think there are a lot of ways things could have gone if our jumping off point from reality was as far back as 1898. You can also get a whole other can of worms with the negligible Spanish power at that point probably would have been almost useless in the face of a Japanese invasion and the Japanese during those periods were very keen on near total assimilation. So yea, there's a rich possibility of alternative histories if you really want to pursue it, but there's that discussion and the discussion of what actually happened and where the Philippines stand today.

Whatever happened, is all ready history, we can not change it.
But the truth is the US and Japan should have never been there.

Now, Filipinos should try to take Spanish back and don't loose English.
English is the business language, they need it.
Spanish is spoken in many countries an can use it for the same reason(business), plus is their language too.
 
Old 08-31-2014, 08:00 PM
 
Location: In the heights
22,174 posts, read 23,698,700 times
Reputation: 11633
Quote:
Originally Posted by SK Brown. View Post
Whatever happened, is all ready history, we can not change it.
But the truth is the US and Japan should have never been there.

Now, Filipinos should try to take Spanish back and don't loose English.
English is the business language, they need it.
Spanish is spoken in many countries an can use it for the same reason(business), plus is their language too.
I guess so. Maybe the Spanish shouldn't have been there either--maybe it would have been nice for the indigenous civilizations to work things out themselves rather than getting stuff ramrodded up them so hard that they're still paying the price of colonialism for the colonized. But yea, it's all history--it's already happened.

Spanish is a good idea for many countries to learn as Spain recovers and Latin America as a whole continues to grow in economic clout. Learning any secondary language is extremely helpful. The only thing is that there's a pretty limited amount of resources available to a country like the Philippines and if you're playing it as a kind of zero-sum game for what resources they do have available, then it probably makes a lot more sense to be a lot more technocratic and spend those resources pushing math, sciences, programming, and engineering ahead of learning another secondary language. It probably makes a lot more economic sense overall and would in the long run would do more in lifting much of the nation out of poverty.
 
Old 08-31-2014, 08:08 PM
 
Location: Czech Republic
2,384 posts, read 5,855,955 times
Reputation: 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by SK Brown. View Post
Whatever happened, is all ready history, we can not change it.
But the truth is the US and Japan should have never been there.

Now, Filipinos should try to take Spanish back and don't loose English.
English is the business language, they need it.
Spanish is spoken in many countries an can use it for the same reason(business), plus is their language too.
Yes Spanish should be brought back to the Philippines and should have the same equal status as English. English because it is a universal language and Spanish because it used to the lingua franca in the Philippines. It is a part of the Philippine history.
 
Old 08-31-2014, 11:02 PM
 
Location: La Muy Noble Leal Ciudad de Iloilo
190 posts, read 187,896 times
Reputation: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
It matters in the sense that having such a relatively small population settle in the Philippines and being a further away outpost meant that the Spanish language was relatively easy to uproot. There doesn't need to be much of a blood test--yes, many hispanic people have none or almost no Spanish ancestry, but every one of those countries have a large contingent of people who do and were all to some extent settler colonies with some much more so than others. Even the ones who were less so weren't far away from others that were and so had overlapping cultural spheres.

It sort of all makes sense since the voyage from Spain to Latin America is a far less extreme one than one to the Philippines, though it probably would have been appreciated by some people if the Spanish had been more set on having the Philippines as a settler colony as well. Maybe the Philippines should give benefits to Spaniards to settle there and have children? I think it'd certainly make some people happy.
According to Spanish census, 1/3rd of Filipinos have Spanish/Hispanic/Latino descent.

Nevertheless, according to a Spanish census in 1798 as much as 1/3rd of Filipinos, in which case, the Filipinos living in Luzon; possess varying degrees of Spanish and Latin-American ancestry.[2] However, this Latino and Hispanic ancestry has been diluted because the colonial power that replaced Spain, the United States, didn't bother to settle into the Philippines in large numbers and in fact reversed the flow, expecting Filipinos to migrate to the U.S. rather than vice-versa. Furthermore, the American policy of de-latinization and de-hispanization, cut off the Philippines from its cultural neighbors in Latin-Europe and Latin-America. A combination of these factors produced a strange scenario wherein the less populated Filipinos have a higher presence in the United States than Americans having a higher presence in the Philippines. An exception of the norm, for usually, the case is that a more populous colonizing nation often settles the less populous one, which didn't occur in American controlled Philippinnes.

Source: The Former Philippines thru Foreign Eyes - Part VI (by Fedor Jagor et al)

The Philippines was already a settler colony. However, the one who reversed the trend were the Americans, who in the words of Bruno Mar's song: "Take, take, takes it all but never gives". At least when it comes to settling populations.

Also, furthermore, Filipinos has had a Spanish nationality longer than most Latin-American countries.

For example, Mexico rebelled against Spain on 1821 while we rebelled against Spain on 1898, a full 70+ years later, around 3 generations later. So, by virtue of fidelity, we have more of a right to reject those Latin American ignorant who first rejected us as "non-hispanic" than they have, of considering us non-hispanic.

Last edited by Selurong; 08-31-2014 at 11:48 PM..
 
Old 08-31-2014, 11:32 PM
 
Location: La Muy Noble Leal Ciudad de Iloilo
190 posts, read 187,896 times
Reputation: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by SK Brown. View Post
Serulong, the ignorance of the Latinoamericanos is the cause, we have so much problems to solve that we have forgotten that we have a brother across the ocean.
Same with Filipinos in the Us that refuse to be whahe t they really are.

Time and perseverance my friend, we can do it!



I want to show you a FIESTA DE CARNAVAL in San Miguel de Allende Guanajuato were almost half of the population is "gringa", yes, American and Canadian ex pats.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYDAFZsjXac
I hope we can reuinite with our brothers acrsoss the Ocean.

Latinos have treated Filipinos more egalitarianly compared to gringos.
And the vice-versa is true.

During our war with the Sultanate of Brunei, known as the Castille War, both Filipino and Latino blood were intermingled, in order to free the area from Islamic Imperialism. As was the case in the Battle of Lepanto in Europe and the Castille War in Southeast Asia, our armies marched under the banner of Our Lady of Guadalupe, of Mexico.

Ties between Filipinos and Latinos are very ancient. Manila was first founded as a suffragan of the Archdiocese of Mexico and a Mexican, Manuel Rojo Del Rio, became Governor-General during the British Occupation.

Likewise, the city of Puerto Princess was founded by the Patron Saint of Colombia, South-America: San Ezekiel Moreno.

There was so much inter-oceanic ties between our two ethnicities despite the fact that the Pacific Ocean literally was an area that made Latin-America and the Philippines, belong to opposite time-zones.

Yet, the Latinos also returned the favor too.

For example President Vincente Guerrero had a right-hand man, who was Filipino by descent.

Isidoro Montes de Oca - A Mexican General (Of Filipino descent) and Lieutenant commander of Vicente Guerrero.(Meaning he was second-in-command of the whole revolution, President Vicente Guerrero trusted him that much)


Mexicans and Latinos then obviously loved and respected us and even appointed Filipinos as Generals and Governors and we also appointed Latinos as Governors or Bishops.

Meanwhile, Americans don't even acknowledge our existence. (This, despite the fact that we know their language or worship their pop-culture. Yet, they love their enemies more, the Japanese, since they obsess more about them, than us)

In contrast, in Latin-America, a Filipino was the right-hand man of the revolution, in Anglo-America, a Filipino can't even attain an office half that high.

Last edited by Selurong; 08-31-2014 at 11:49 PM..
 
Old 09-01-2014, 01:10 AM
 
Location: In the heights
22,174 posts, read 23,698,700 times
Reputation: 11633
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selurong View Post
According to Spanish census, 1/3rd of Filipinos have Spanish/Hispanic/Latino descent.

Nevertheless, according to a Spanish census in 1798 as much as 1/3rd of Filipinos, in which case, the Filipinos living in Luzon; possess varying degrees of Spanish and Latin-American ancestry.[2] However, this Latino and Hispanic ancestry has been diluted because the colonial power that replaced Spain, the United States, didn't bother to settle into the Philippines in large numbers and in fact reversed the flow, expecting Filipinos to migrate to the U.S. rather than vice-versa. Furthermore, the American policy of de-latinization and de-hispanization, cut off the Philippines from its cultural neighbors in Latin-Europe and Latin-America. A combination of these factors produced a strange scenario wherein the less populated Filipinos have a higher presence in the United States than Americans having a higher presence in the Philippines. An exception of the norm, for usually, the case is that a more populous colonizing nation often settles the less populous one, which didn't occur in American controlled Philippinnes.

Source: The Former Philippines thru Foreign Eyes - Part VI (by Fedor Jagor et al)

The Philippines was already a settler colony. However, the one who reversed the trend were the Americans, who in the words of Bruno Mar's song: "Take, take, takes it all but never gives". At least when it comes to settling populations.

Also, furthermore, Filipinos has had a Spanish nationality longer than most Latin-American countries.

For example, Mexico rebelled against Spain on 1821 while we rebelled against Spain on 1898, a full 70+ years later, around 3 generations later. So, by virtue of fidelity, we have more of a right to reject those Latin American ignorant who first rejected us as "non-hispanic" than they have, of considering us non-hispanic.
There's almost not a single reputable study that places the Philippines as a settler colony by almost any loose definition. That lack was on purpose, because the Manila Galleon was done as a monopoly--it certainly could have been done with a much larger settler contingency, but it was by edict not done. Having a longer history doesn't matter that much if settlers weren't arriving in large numbers.

The Americans definitely attempted to reverse the trends, but they were even less keen on making the Philippines a settler colony.

What is this right to reject being non-Hispanic? Does it make the Spanish Guineas more hispanic than Latin American colonies simply because they didn't rebel as early despite the difference in demographic trends and actual number of settlers? Why are they ignorant if the hispanic term comprises largely of themselves in latin america with very obvious links and porous boundaries and that they have the wherewithal to choose what inclusiveness means?

What is it about the Philippines where they so desperately wish they were much more aggressively colonized? What makes having their native culture extirpated so much more appealing than for many Latin American countries which seem to go in the opposite direction in the desire to further differentiate themselves from the Spanish colonial history? Why is it that even with a much smaller minority of Spaniards and Spanish speakers that the Philippines seem to have such a desperate contingent of people who wish they had the indigenous culture more thoroughly obliterated?

If you want it as a nation so badly, it's there. Change your policies. Make way for much looser laws on Spanish emigration then if as a country that's what you so want. The question is really if you believe this will actually raise the living standards for the people of the country and if it matters at all to you.

It almost sounds like a more thorough extermination of the indigenous elements would have made a lot of you guys far happier. If so, then exterminate. It's your country. This halfway of having the vast majority of your population unable to live up to these arbitrary standards of Spanish-ness will hold the country back unless you either abandon it or go full force and try to entice a thorough population replacement. Either sounds terrible, but go on with what you think is best.

The best I can make of that mentality is pretty limited. Yes, European and Europe-derived civilizations have been the most successful around the globe and so it sounds great to attach oneself to that bandwagon. The political context of where I'm originally from is in some ways different, because Taiwan is a developed country that's to some degree mitigated putting Europe on a pedestal. I'm of majority Austronesian descent and think it's great that there is a celebration of the culture and history of a group of people who were the greatest seafarers of the world for a good chunk of time up until the modern industrial age and think it's great the Philippines were able to conserve that even after four centuries of colonization, but I'm sympathetic to the idea of wanting to be on a winning team. That drive in the Philippines to latch themselves on to any bit they can of the Spanish legacy is interesting, though it does seem incredibly corrosive to the development of the country--but sure, if the people are really for it, then go completely through with it.

However, keep in mind that trying to resurrect a historical legacy isn't always the most pragmatic solution. The Philippines were slated to be, after World War II, the most developed country in East and Southeast Asia, but it never actually reached that potential. If you really want to dogmatically follow western thought, then what happened recently with birth control legislation and what were contemporary western values on it for the last several decades, were implemented pretty far behind. This holds for social values on a larger level aside from birth control, and a Philippines that had followed that same trajectory of throwing off the Old World religions as most of Latin American had eventually done, would have likely have been far more prosperous for the country.

So yea, do it. Get the world some Wolf Prizes and Nobel prizes in the math and sciences. There's supposed to be a natural advantage for the Philippines being how westernized it's supposed to be, so live up to that potential. I'm all for it.

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 09-01-2014 at 01:37 AM..
 
Old 09-01-2014, 06:54 PM
 
Location: Sanjo, Califas.
570 posts, read 371,595 times
Reputation: 116

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50sQIckCn-U

Turtle releasing on the beaches of La Union Guerrero, this one is called "Troncones".



La Union, Guerrero, Mexico.
Whole name: LA UNION DE ISIDORO MONTES DE OCA, Guerrero, Mexico.

Isidoro Montes de Oca also fought on the army of Jose Maria Morelos y Pavon, right in the beginning of Mexican independence, we need to find out if he was in Apatzingan Michoacan for the first Mexican constitution in 1814.

Constitution of Apatzingán - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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