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I have nothing against 4h, but it doesnt teach more skills than Scouts, not close. Not sure what JJ's experience was, I cant imagine why you'd say its popularity based, makes no sense to me. Its all individual effort/reward....
I have nothing against 4h, but it doesnt teach more skills than Scouts, not close. Not sure what JJ's experience was, I cant imagine why you'd say its popularity based, makes no sense to me. Its all individual effort/reward....
What kind of 'skills' do you think Scouts teaches over 4H? We went camping, we had survival groups, wilderness groups, shooting sports, traveled all over the country for events, had leadership groups, debate competitions, hosted exchange students etc etc.
We did everything the scouts did and then some. I say it was popularity based because only 'certain' people were allowed in 'certain' groups with the boy scouts and girl scouts in my area. Denying membership was fairly common. In 4H however, everyone was invited and everyone was allowed to participate.
I'm with QH about church/state. The BSA has a federal charter to operate and, while they might not get direct federal funding, they do get federal/public endorsements, preferential treatment/access, and goods/services worth $$$ each year. Meanwhile, they have a policy of discrimination (against atheists and gays, for example) yet claim protection as a private religious organization. I call BS,A on that big time.
What kind of 'skills' do you think Scouts teaches over 4H? We went camping, we had survival groups, wilderness groups, shooting sports, traveled all over the country for events, had leadership groups, debate competitions, hosted exchange students etc etc.
We did everything the scouts did and then some. I say it was popularity based because only 'certain' people were allowed in 'certain' groups with the boy scouts and girl scouts in my area. Denying membership was fairly common. In 4H however, everyone was invited and everyone was allowed to participate.
The focus of Scouting vs 4h is a bit different, but Scouting has hundreds of areas of activity.
I have no experience in Scouts where certain people were allowed in certain groups, can you be more specific. I dont even know how that could happen. Ive never seen anyone denied membership, in my lifetime.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again... I had HORRIBLE experiences with both the boy scouts and the girl scouts growing up. Very exclusive and very 'popularity' based organizations, in my opinion, and I will never recommend them. Why would you put your child in a group where they are openly allowed to discriminate? It doesn't make sense to me...
I always recommend 4H. Inclusive, teaches MORE skills than the scouts and doesn't care what religion or gender you are.
I am sorry you had a bad experience with girl scouts. I have been involved with them since my dd who is now almost 40 was in first grade. Girl scouts did NOT have the exclusions that boy scouts does. We had a very diverse troop with all kinds of kids from atheist to catholic to protestant to hindu (no moslems, but they would have been welcome).
My granddaughter is in a troop here in Texas and there are mostly Christians, but the religious side of things has not been pushed and since her mom is Hindu, the troop has learned a little about Hinduism.
Both of our troops have been very heavy on girl's being independent and planning things themselves. My granddaughter went camping as a kindergartener on one of the coldest weekends of the year. I thought that the girls would not want to go back, but they loved it and can't get enough of camping now that they are 3rd and 4th graders. Our troop is certainly not popularity based, though I remember a similar experience back when I was very young and tried brownies. I really think things depend a lot of the leader of the troop.
I am a big fan of 4H too, but there is no 4H club close by and you can't join 4H until you are in 4th grade whereas my dgd has been in girl scouts since she was 5. Girl scouts are NOT allowed to discriminate, btw. Despite the word God in the pledge, we have had atheist and lesbian leaders with no problems. There is sort of a don't ask, don't evangelize policy though.
As a private organization, Girl Scouts of the U.S.A. respects the values and beliefs of each of its members and does not intrude into personal matters. Therefore, there are no membership policies on sexual preference. However, Girl Scouts of the U.S.A. has firm standards relating to the appropriate conduct of adult volunteers and staff. The Girl Scout organization does not condone or permit sexual displays of any sort by its members during Girl Scout activities, nor does it permit the advocacy or promotion of a personal lifestyle or sexual preference. These are private matters for girls and their families to address.
Quote:
since the Girl Scout organization makes no attempt to interpret or define the word 'God' but encourages members to establish for themselves the nature of their spiritual beliefs, it is the policy of the Girl Scouts of the U.S.A. that individuals when making the Girl Scout Promise may substitute wording appropriate to their own spiritual beliefs for the word 'God'."
with the explanation that
"For some individuals, the word 'God', no matter how broadly interpreted, does not appropriately reflect their spiritual beliefs. Since the belief in a spiritual principle is fundamental to Girl Scouting, not the word used to define that belief, it is important that individuals have the opportunity to express that belief in wording meaningful to them. It is essential to maintain the spiritual foundation of Girl Scouting, yet be inclusive of the full range of spiritual beliefs. This [policy change] does not take the word 'God' out of the Girl Scout Promise. It gives those individuals who wish to do so the option to state their commitment to the spiritual concepts fundamental to the Movement with a word or words more appropriate to their own beliefs. For instance, an individual may say 'my faith' or 'Allah' or 'the Creator'."
since the Girl Scout organization makes no attempt to interpret or define the word 'God' but encourages members to establish for themselves the nature of their spiritual beliefs, it is the policy of the Girl Scouts of the U.S.A. that individuals when making the Girl Scout Promise may substitute wording appropriate to their own spiritual beliefs for the word 'God'."
with the explanation that
"For some individuals, the word 'God', no matter how broadly interpreted, does not appropriately reflect their spiritual beliefs. Since the belief in a spiritual principle is fundamental to Girl Scouting, not the word used to define that belief, it is important that individuals have the opportunity to express that belief in wording meaningful to them. It is essential to maintain the spiritual foundation of Girl Scouting, yet be inclusive of the full range of spiritual beliefs. This [policy change] does not take the word 'God' out of the Girl Scout Promise. It gives those individuals who wish to do so the option to state their commitment to the spiritual concepts fundamental to the Movement with a word or words more appropriate to their own beliefs. For instance, an individual may say 'my faith' or 'Allah' or 'the Creator'."
Dorothy
Unfortunately, that is still passive-aggressively unwelcoming and exclusive of atheists.
Unfortunately, that is still passive-aggressively unwelcoming and exclusive of atheists.
LOL, I was 'courted' by the local Masons attempting to recruit me into their 'Lodge'. I attended several of their events and a meeting. A few days after this 'meeting', the point-man for the recruitment came to my house and asked me what I thought.
I told him that I thought they did some very good things and that I wouldn't mind being a part of that...but I doubted that they would accept me because I wasn't qualified according to their standards. He said (somewhat confused) "But we have only one qualification for acceptance..."
I responded "Exactly, I don't qualify, and it wouldn't be honest of me to pretend that I do." I am now persona non grata at Masonic events.
The single qualification for entrance to the Masons is a belief in "God".
I guess a dishonest Theist is somehow 'better' than an honest Atheist?
Honestly I do not see any problem with the Scouts or Masons or 4h or atheist groups for that matter, everyone can't belong to everything. Same reason a Christian or Muslim or whoever wouldnt join a group that went against their beliefs. It does not make it discriminatory. Im not going to join the local aviation club or corvette club because its not a part of what I do. So what.
The focus of Scouting vs 4h is a bit different, but Scouting has hundreds of areas of activity.
I have no experience in Scouts where certain people were allowed in certain groups, can you be more specific. I dont even know how that could happen. Ive never seen anyone denied membership, in my lifetime.
Well, the girl scouts in my area were for the more...affluent people. Since my family really couldn't participate in a lot of the activities that required money, were were essentially shunned and after a while they started 'forgetting' to invite us to events and meetings. We didn't do a lot of fundraising, since the parents were well off and could just 'donate' money to the club. This also happened to my best friend, whom I met in 4H after were were both unceremoniously booted from our respective girl scout groups.
It just left a bad taste in my mouth. Plus, the 3 troops that I tried out were more focused on looking pretty and being ultra girly instead of actually accomplishing things. I wanted to join the boy scouts, but since I'm a girl they wouldn't let me. So, I joined 4H and started an Aerospace and rocketry group that still exists over a decade later
LOL, I was 'courted' by the local Masons attempting to recruit me into their 'Lodge'. I attended several of their events and a meeting. A few days after this 'meeting', the point-man for the recruitment came to my house and asked me what I thought.
I told him that I thought they did some very good things and that I wouldn't mind being a part of that...but I doubted that they would accept me because I wasn't qualified according to their standards. He said (somewhat confused) "But we have only one qualification for acceptance..."
I responded "Exactly, I don't qualify, and it wouldn't be honest of me to pretend that I do." I am now persona non grata at Masonic events.
The single qualification for entrance to the Masons is a belief in "God".
I guess a dishonest Theist is somehow 'better' than an honest Atheist?
I have a good friend who is a Mason, and I've talked to him about this. He justifies it by saying "You don't have to believe in God, you just have to believe in a higher power."
He doesn't understand that saying 'higher power' instead of god is like saying 'intelligent design' instead of creation.
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