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Old 07-07-2011, 11:17 AM
 
16,825 posts, read 17,640,479 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
If you concede that it is possible that gods exist then you believe in the possibility of gods. Atheists do not have a belief in gods.

Let me try another tack.

1. I am atheist. I have no belief in gods. I have no belief that they could possibly exist somewhere that we have not yet discovered.

2. I am agnostic. I do not see enough evidence either way to make a decision. I am open to the possibility that gods may exist.

In 1 above we have no belief in gods = atheism.
In 2 above we have an acceptance that gods may exist. A belief in gods, however small = theism.
You are changing definitions.

Agnosticism isn't about what you believe its about what is possible to know. Because I am agnostic I think it is IMPOSSIBLE to KNOW if gods exist one way or another. Because I am also an atheist I do not BELIEVE in gods.

The definition for 2 is an INCORRECT definition for agnostic. This is clearly seen since the opposite of your definition, "I am closed to the possibility gods exist" does not remotely describe the gnostic position at all.
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Old 07-07-2011, 02:54 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,796,385 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
You are changing definitions.

Agnosticism isn't about what you believe its about what is possible to know. Because I am agnostic I think it is IMPOSSIBLE to KNOW if gods exist one way or another. Because I am also an atheist I do not BELIEVE in gods.

The definition for 2 is an INCORRECT definition for agnostic. This is clearly seen since the opposite of your definition, "I am closed to the possibility gods exist" does not remotely describe the gnostic position at all.
You are complicating that which is not complicated. Let's keep it simple...

Q. Do you believe in the existence or possible existence of gods?
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Old 07-07-2011, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Metromess
11,798 posts, read 25,089,771 times
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I don't understand how one can believe in a god or gods if there is no way to know whether they exist or not. And I don't think there is a way to know. Therefore, it becomes wishful thinking. That's why it is "faith" or "belief", since it isn't knowable.
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Old 07-07-2011, 04:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
You are complicating that which is not complicated. Let's keep it simple...

Q. Do you believe in the existence or possible existence of gods?
No therefore I am an atheist.

BUT I also think it is not possible to KNOW one way or another if gods exist, therefore I am ALSO an agnostic.

Agnostic atheist, that would be me.

Just because you find it complicated does not mean its incorrect.
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Old 07-07-2011, 04:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catman View Post
I don't understand how one can believe in a god or gods if there is no way to know whether they exist or not. And I don't think there is a way to know. Therefore, it becomes wishful thinking. That's why it is "faith" or "belief", since it isn't knowable.
I have a very good friend who is a agnostic theist. His belief is based on faith not knowledge. I don't agree with it but I understand the concept well enough.
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Old 07-07-2011, 08:13 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,796,385 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
No therefore I am an atheist.

BUT I also think it is not possible to KNOW one way or another if gods exist, therefore I am ALSO an agnostic.

Agnostic atheist, that would be me.

Just because you find it complicated does not mean its incorrect.
Again you are mixing belief with knowledge.

You do not believe in the existence or possible existence of gods - you are therefore atheist and no need to call yourself anything other than atheist. Job done! Plain and simple. My only point was that one cannot be atheist AND believe that gods may exist.
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Old 07-08-2011, 12:35 AM
 
Location: Metromess
11,798 posts, read 25,089,771 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
I have a very good friend who is a agnostic theist. His belief is based on faith not knowledge. I don't agree with it but I understand the concept well enough.
I understand the concept too, but it's not logical. As I said, wishful thinking. But at least he understands that his belief is not knowledge. Would that all believers understood that difference.
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Old 07-08-2011, 04:59 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,079 posts, read 20,495,373 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
I have a very good friend who is a agnostic theist. His belief is based on faith not knowledge. I don't agree with it but I understand the concept well enough.
Quite so, but that's what Raffs was getting at.

He is an agnostic theist: a faith - belief based on a knowledge position. The knowledge position is one of agnosticism - he does not know there is a god. Of course that friend may consider that evidence is good enough that his knowledge position is supported. He would not be the only one by any means. I think that he would be wrong and would undertake to demonstrate it in discussion, but at this time his theism might be based on not being too agnostic.

On the other hand, if he does say that he really doesn't know there is a god or that if there is one it is impossible to know anything about it (both definitions come to the same thing in the end) then his faith - position is believing that what he does not know to exist actually does exist - though presumably he doesn't believe that everything else that he does not know exists actually does exist. Thus this faith - based belief in God is illogical.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 07-08-2011 at 05:26 AM..
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Old 07-08-2011, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Metromess
11,798 posts, read 25,089,771 times
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That is the problem with atheism for some: it doesn't offer a metaphysical bribe. So they talk themselves into believing what they want to, with the illusory 'comfort' and belief in the eternal 'soul' which it brings. (After all, it might be true, right?) Sure.
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Old 07-09-2011, 06:03 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,079 posts, read 20,495,373 times
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I think that's very true. When you put it like that it seems foolish but it is actually very persuasive to peddle the 'Theism goes where mere science cannot reach'. It appeals to many that it purports to give answers to mysteries and questions which science freely admits it cannot yet answer.

To say that these answers are speculative seems to cut no ice. Rather like a stopped clock that is right once a day it is considered to be better than no clock at all.

Of course the answer in both cases is that you need a proper timepiece to tell you when the stopped clock is right and you need the verified results of science to tell you whether theist speculations have made a lucky guess or got it dead wrong. so far, the track record of theist speculation is not too good.

And science has answered many of the mysteries and questions. This is what we call closing the gaps for God. If course some questions remain, but ignoring all the questions that have been answered and pointing to those that still remain as a way of claiming that Theist speculations are still better (that's even without blandly dismissing the verified data as 'opinion') is clutching at straws rather.
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