Raised faith (born, debate, contradiction, atheist)

[Mercury Cougar]

Originally Posted by Minus Florida

Who knows for sure what is truly out there? You can't. It's not logical. It's only logical to make assessments and decisions based on your life experience and what knowledge is out there.

You speak of logic, yet say you believe in intelligent design. There is no logic to intelligent design. It's merely a facade to hide an abrahamic-style creator-god. As far as being closed-minded, I'm quite willing to look at any factual scientific proof of ID that you care to provide us with. You claim existence of a designer/creator, the burden is upon you to prove it, not me. My only requirement is that your "proof" of a designer is factual and capable of being repeatedly tested in a scientific manner, because you know...you're so logical and all.

Ball is in your court.

[Minus Florida]

Originally Posted by Mercury Cougar

You speak of logic, yet say you believe in intelligent design. There is no logic to intelligent design. It's merely a facade to hide an abrahamic-style creator-god. As far as being closed-minded, I'm quite willing to look at any factual scientific proof of ID that you care to provide us with. You claim existence of a designer/creator, the burden is upon you to prove it, not me. My only requirement is that your "proof" of a designer is factual and capable of being repeatedly tested in a scientific manner, because you know...you're so logical and all.

Ball is in your court.

I've said my piece. I'm not here to present a case that I'm right. I only mentioned what I believe and I'm good with that. I'm not here to convince you or anyone else anything. I came to my decision based on my life experiences. Just as I would believe that you have come to your decision based off your life experiences. I'm just fine with that and really, I don't care one way or the other.

The only thing I pointed out was that you basically attacked what I believe in, and that wasn't really necessary. I look forward to logical and mature conversations about different and opposing views. We don't need to get heated or result to ridiculing.

But I know we don't all have the same thought processes, maturity, etc. just as we all don't have the same beliefs.

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by Minus Florida

Whether it's a god involved or not, I do believe there is something more than just random chance.

Actually I think you will find that very few people, including most atheists, subscribe to the notion of random chance anyway. Chance is an ELEMENT in most things, from evolution to the events we experience every day, but that is all. Most things are more than JUST random chance and most people recognise this.

There are usually constraints on the chance before the fact and selective pressures after the fact all of which lend to the false impression that there is some “design” behind the processes… and it is likely such impressions that you are alluding to here when you say you feel there is something more behind it all.

On top of all this, the impression is compounded by the fact that we are a pattern seeking animal. We can discern patterns that are not even there and sometimes we do so with such efficiency that we can not even make ourselves believe the pattern is not really there.

The best example that jumps to mind at short notice is that of the 23ists. The people who think the number 23 is behind everything there is. To most of us this idea is clearly nonsense, mainly because it works for every other number too, especially prime numbers.

However try it yourself some day. If you seek this pattern you will find it really is there. You will see 23 everywhere, or numbers who’s digits somehow… upon the application of some simple arithmetic… result in 23. Multiples of 23 exist too. A whole extra world opens up if you realise 32 is 23 backwards and now you have all the multiples and arithmetic results of 32 to play with too….

… and these people genuinely are powerfully convinced by the pattern they have found, even though no such pattern actually exists. They simply allow themselves to discern one while dismissing anything that does not fit it.

[Joe_Ryder]

Originally Posted by Minus Florida

I've said my piece. I'm not here to present a case that I'm right. I only mentioned what I believe and I'm good with that. I'm not here to convince you or anyone else anything. I came to my decision based on my life experiences. Just as I would believe that you have come to your decision based off your life experiences. I'm just fine with that and really, I don't care one way or the other.

The only thing I pointed out was that you basically attacked what I believe in, and that wasn't really necessary. I look forward to logical and mature conversations about different and opposing views. We don't need to get heated or result to ridiculing.

But I know we don't all have the same thought processes, maturity, etc. just as we all don't have the same beliefs.

To be honest, that last sentence sounds pretty judgmental. Pretty typical of believers. You're presenting no facts except claims that events you don't fathom must be attributable to intelligent design. That my friend is not logic, it's blind faith.

[achickenchaser]

Congrats on seeing religion for the sham that it is

As has already been mentioned once in this thread, it sounds like you have Deist leanings now. Nothing wrong with that.

I can agree with you that, if we're really honest about things, nobody knows for sure what's out there, so to speak, or if there's a life after death. There's nothing wrong with having a personnel belief.

[Minus Florida]

Originally Posted by Joe_Ryder

To be honest, that last sentence sounds pretty judgmental. Pretty typical of believers. You're presenting no facts except claims that events you don't fathom must be attributable to intelligent design. That my friend is not logic, it's blind faith.

Okay I'm at a loss. So you are saying that by my saying we don't all have the same beliefs, maturity & thought processes, that makes me judgmental? I don't see how you see that. It's an observation. You can make accurate observations without judging. you know that right?

but anyways, to the other part of your statement.

All I am saying is that I "believe" (with no factual evidence to support my "claim") there is something more than just random chance. Based off my life experiences. Yada yada yada.

All it is is a belief. I am in no way shape or form trying to tell anyone that I am right, nor am I trying to prove something that can't be proven.

Really when you look at it, all any religion or lack there of is, is a "belief". Because nobody knows for sure one way or the other. You either "believe" there is a god or ID or you don't. Even if you feel you know 100% you are right, it really still is just a belief. And that goes for our christian friends, atheists, and people like myself.

As far as logic, I am willing to say this (and you won't like it), logic is 99% black & white. Logic doesn't lie, correct? However, it's hard to do this, put yourself in a situation that you see enough things that defy logic.

You understand logic is the be all end all, so how can you see things that defy it? What happened to me was that it became logical to believe there is something more than random chance, due to logic being discredited in a number of instances.

My experience will not work for anyone else other than myself, so I refuse to talk about what I've seen. Just as anybody who talks to me about their beliefs in an attempt to convince me of their faith, will not work.

For any of the above to make sense to you, you must have an open mind.

[Milleka]

Originally Posted by Minus Florida

I grew up Christian, then became an atheist in my teenage years. Over the last 5 or so years now, I've come to a conclusion on my own that there is a god, intelligent design, etc. But I refuse to believe in ANY type of religion. Simply put I don't believe in anything people related, as people are too corrupt and self serving for me to have any type of faith in something they've said or written down recently or thousands of years ago for that matter. Bible, religion, etc. No thanks.

This conclusion I've come to was on my own, independent of my family and friends. I'm sure that most of, if not all, of you on this board have come to your belief decision independently as well. I realize that this is not the "norm". And this has always fascinated me.

Whenever I'm talking with a person about religion (almost always a Christian) they try to point out how they are right, how I'm wrong, and how I can get past my doubts to understand and believe in their views.

One thing that always discredits them in my mind instantly is that they were raised to believe in what they believe.

They were raised as a Christian, or Catholic, etc. And they are trying to explain to me that out of all the religions out there, all the gods, their's is right. The one true god. Pretty lucky for them huh? That they just so happened to be raised in THE ONE right religion, and they get to go to heaven, while everyone else goes to hell.

If they were raised Muslim, or if they were raised believing in Hindu, or insert god here, they would be having this same conversation with me on how that god is the "one true god". When I point this out, it seems to make them quiet for a second, and they continue on with their yada yada yada's.

This is something that has been on my mind for quite a while and thought I'd share.

It was actually this exact notion that ultimately brought me to agnosticism. Just like you, I wondered how so many different religions claimed and truly believed that they worshipped the "true" god and everyone else was going to hell. They all couldn't be right, so that meant there was a possibility that they could all be wrong.

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by Minus Florida

Really when you look at it, all any religion or lack there of is, is a "belief". Because nobody knows for sure one way or the other. You either "believe" there is a god or ID or you don't.

This is not accurate. There are 3 states one can be in, not 2, and only 2 of those 3 are a beleif:

1) You believe there is a god (belief)
2) You believe there is no god (belief)
3) You see no reason to think there is a god and so dismiss the idea as the entirely unsubstantiated idea that it is. (not a belief)

You will find that there are people who fall into all 3 categories but that most people who call themselves "atheist" fall under the third. The third is not a belief but a result of a personal rule.

That personal rule is that if an idea or claim comes before you ENTIRELY devoid of any evidence, argument, data OR reasons to lend it even a modicum of credence then you simply dismiss it, even if it is possibly true for all you know.

It is a very basic rule that almost everyone follows every day in most things, though they suspend it sometimes for other things.

Now GIVEN THAT there is not a shred of even a scrap of argument, data, reasons of evidence forthcoming on the subject of there actually existing this god entity... we simply dismiss it as unsubstantiated and resist it's use in other realms of discourse as valid data in other arguments. There is no onus on people to disprove something that someone else has entirely made up based on nothing. It should just be dismissed.

[Mambomouse]

Originally Posted by Minus Florida

My experience will not work for anyone else other than myself, so I refuse to talk about what I've seen. Just as anybody who talks to me about their beliefs in an attempt to convince me of their faith, will not work.

Reading through this thread, I was very interested to hear about your experience which has brought you to your current beliefs, so that I can better understand. And then you say you refuse to talk about it. I do not expect to convinced by anyone, one way or the other, but surely, through sharing our experiences and knowledge, our conclusions can have stronger foundations.

[Joe_Ryder]

Originally Posted by Minus Florida

Okay I'm at a loss. So you are saying that by my saying we don't all have the same beliefs, maturity & thought processes, that makes me judgmental? I don't see how you see that. It's an observation. You can make accurate observations without judging. you know that right?

but anyways, to the other part of your statement.

All I am saying is that I "believe" (with no factual evidence to support my "claim") there is something more than just random chance. Based off my life experiences. Yada yada yada.

All it is is a belief. I am in no way shape or form trying to tell anyone that I am right, nor am I trying to prove something that can't be proven.

Really when you look at it, all any religion or lack there of is, is a "belief". Because nobody knows for sure one way or the other. You either "believe" there is a god or ID or you don't. Even if you feel you know 100% you are right, it really still is just a belief. And that goes for our christian friends, atheists, and people like myself.

As far as logic, I am willing to say this (and you won't like it), logic is 99% black & white. Logic doesn't lie, correct? However, it's hard to do this, put yourself in a situation that you see enough things that defy logic.

You understand logic is the be all end all, so how can you see things that defy it? What happened to me was that it became logical to believe there is something more than random chance, due to logic being discredited in a number of instances.

My experience will not work for anyone else other than myself, so I refuse to talk about what I've seen. Just as anybody who talks to me about their beliefs in an attempt to convince me of their faith, will not work.

For any of the above to make sense to you, you must have an open mind.

Well I would love to discuss this rationally with you but as long as you refuse to follow the basic rules of logical discussion then I really see no point. One of the primary requirements is to agree to be open to changing your mind if presented with compelling evidence. Clearly you are not. In short, you do NOT have an open mind.

Logic is only a process, not a law. I think you are confusing logic with what you perceive to be physical laws. I too have seen many things that defy my limited understanding of physics or mechanics. All that proves is that I don't understand them and nothing more.