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I beg to differ. If one is going to assert that something exists, logic would dictate that it needs to be shown to exist. Otherwise, one is simply making an assumption. Looks like you did not read my message or did not like what I wrote. Logic, logic, logic. I have seen so frequently in threads people trying to logical. We all do. However, many people may not bring logic sitting down and saying 'I do not have to prove anything, you make the claim you prove it'. However, bring up the issue of the existence of a maker, wow, it is time to stick to logic to the strictest level. No room for be more interactive as in other threads.
That was an unnecessary insult. I don't need to show evidence that a god does not exist. It is sufficient to poke holes in the weak evidence that purportedly shows that one does. Insult? Now, that is a good one. How in the world is that an insult. I stated it as a question. I just do not know what else to say. If someone makes some type of assertion and I simply go right to the point why I think it is wrong, is that the wrong thing to do? I have to sit down and tell 'You made the claim, prove it'? In logic that may be the appropriate course but does it make it wrong to take the first step? What is wrong with that? Firstly, thanks a lot for grouping all atheists together as if we are all alike. I wouldn't do that with Christians or any other religious group.
Did I say all atheists? Here is where you showed me that once you heard something you did not like go to the offended tactic as in the insult comment above. There are some very great atheist I have had interaction on the issue with mutual respect. Did I not say that theists do the same? I did not refer to all theist either, did I?.
Secondly, you are saying that since we interact with Christians, we are automatically putting them down? This conflicts with your earlier statement recommending that we engage with them. I try to refrain from ad hominem insults,which some theists see in any comment which does not support their religious beliefs.
You now put words in my mouth. What I wrote is what it is, no more no less. On both sides of the issue there are those that demean the other group and also good level headed individuals. Notice and read carefully, you MAY be the overly sensitive type by the way you reacted. I do not know. No insult intended whatsovever. If you took offense, sorry, my apologies.
Now that you brought this up. I am curious who insults more on religious debates, specially when it comes about the existence of a maker. I do wonder. Why not look at the titles of threads started by theist and atheist and see which ones are more demeaning to the opposite view. I think I am going to check that out. Thanks, you gave me another think to look into. I am the inquisitive type, take care.
Well it's been some years since I last stumbled into this forum, and what should I see but a lovely God argument.
To my mind, there's really only one useful train of thought here.
1. The world is way too complex and wonderful to have happened by accident. So, there must be intelligence behind its design, so there must be a god.
2. That god, to design and create a world as complex and wonderful as ours, must be incredible - beyond our comprehension.
3. That god must be even more complex and wonderful than the world he designed and created.
4. God is therefore way too complex and wonderful to have happened by accident. So, are we saying there must be intelligence behind his design? Did a higher power design God? Is that higher god even more complex and powerful?
5. Oh, hang on. This whole god thing doesn't work, does it? If the universe can't have happened without an intelligent designer, then that designer himself can't have happened without another, more complex designer.
6. The whole god argument is just a very lazy way to stop thinking. It doesn't answer any questions at all.
Can we put it all to bed now, and get on with enjoying ourselves?
I have never been one to believe in something because it will make me feel better. I know that my lifestyle (smoking, drinking, fatty foods and some stuff I will not get into) may possibly lead to an early death and I am okay with that. I know that evil* people will do evil things and will not only get away them, but their lives will be better for it and I have to deal with that. I know that good people will be s--t on by life and circumstances and their lot in life will never change and I have to cope with that. I also know that when I do finally die (likely from the previously mentioned lifestyle) my consciousness will no longer exist and it will be like I never existed at all. This is not something I find pleasant. I find it deeply disturbing, but I figure that I might as well have fun while I can, I might as well enjoy myself while I can, I might as well treat those closest to me the best I can before I pass into oblivion.
Well it's been some years since I last stumbled into this forum, and what should I see but a lovely God argument.
To my mind, there's really only one useful train of thought here.
1. The world is way too complex and wonderful to have happened by accident. So, there must be intelligence behind its design, so there must be a god.
2. That god, to design and create a world as complex and wonderful as ours, must be incredible - beyond our comprehension.
3. That god must be even more complex and wonderful than the world he designed and created.
4. God is therefore way too complex and wonderful to have happened by accident. So, are we saying there must be intelligence behind his design? Did a higher power design God? Is that higher god even more complex and powerful?
5. Oh, hang on. This whole god thing doesn't work, does it? If the universe can't have happened without an intelligent designer, then that designer himself can't have happened without another, more complex designer.
6. The whole god argument is just a very lazy way to stop thinking. It doesn't answer any questions at all.
Can we put it all to bed now, and get on with enjoying ourselves?
Thanks
This IS enjoying ourselves. Do you seriously think we'd spend hours doing this without being paid if we didn't?
I'm not going to be able to read through this big long thread, and if someone has already said this, please forgive me. But when you say "driven to know the truth," I associate that with free thinking and intelligence, and I would say, yes, definitely.
Apparently, there are studies with large demographics which indicate that there is direct correlation between intelligence and atheism; with some anecdotal exceptions, the higher the intelligence, the more likely is the person to be either openly or secretly a free thinker, agnostic or atheist. If you look at samples of eminent people in the sciences and arts, you will see this reflected.
Are atheists more driven to know the truth than most?
Not if the performance in the Agnostic/Atheist thread is any indication. I have seldom encountered more obtuse and intransigent responses to my attempts to clarify the facts.
Not if the performance in the Agnostic/Atheist thread is any indication. I have seldom encountered more obtuse and intransigent responses to my attempts to clarify the facts.
Does that mean that you find places where your unsubstantiated theory - claimed- as - obvious- to - the -meanest -intellect - fact is is swallowed whole or that there are places where they are MORE disinclined to swallow your unsubstantiated theory - claimed- as - obvious- to - the -meanest -intellect - fact than here? I'd love to read those exchanges. Got a link? Or is this just aimless flailing?
Perhaps not necessarily more driven to know the truth ... but simply more receptive to a truth which may be different from the one generally assumed at present.
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Are atheists more driven to know the truth than most?
