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Old 07-27-2007, 05:40 AM
 
Location: Between Here and There
3,684 posts, read 8,442,589 times
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This is going to seem silly to all of you but here goes. Why can't you believe that there is an alternative state of life or spiritual being after death even if you don't believe in God?

You know my opinion, we'll all be in heaven saying "I told you so" and arguing the details of how that happened in another 50 or 60 years anyway so it probably doesn't matter. But I'm curious.
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Old 07-27-2007, 05:46 AM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,595 posts, read 8,683,383 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishmom View Post
This is going to seem silly to all of you but here goes. Why can't you believe that there is an alternative state of life or spiritual being after death even if you don't believe in God?

You know my opinion, we'll all be in heaven saying "I told you so" and arguing the details of how that happened in another 50 or 60 years anyway so it probably doesn't matter. But I'm curious.
Because life as we know it is processed by the human brain. Everything we see, hear, smell, touch, and taste is all processed by the brain. So a conscious state would require a brain of some sort to process the information. The thing is: I don't see brains floating up to the sky when people die. Of course, I have never witnessed anyone die, but I have never heard reports of this either

To recognize something and understand it as something happening we all know that we must have a brain to perceive this. To have a brain means that we must be alive and a spiritual state is just the opposite of that. That's just my opinion. That, and there is no proof of any sort of heaven or afterlife either
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Old 07-27-2007, 05:53 AM
 
Location: Between Here and There
3,684 posts, read 8,442,589 times
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So you just don't believe there can be any perception with out a functioning brain. Therefore there is no spirit so to speak and that the body is all we have? What about the unconcious or dream state, our brains don't actively percieve these states but they are there...why can't that be attributed to the spiritual (for lack of a better word, if you have one throw it out for me)?
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Old 07-27-2007, 06:10 AM
 
Location: Askim, Norway
228 posts, read 487,184 times
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i think "GOD" is us..
ouer spirit lives on. perhap rebirth not sure.

we are wached over by spirits of ouer family. (simpel way of saying. some englesh words is hard to write)

Basicly thers no God like the bible say. thers no Jesus like the bible says.

but it is spirituel being's. (us)
we all live on in these spirits. perhaps with greater empathy and understanding of each other.

so even if its no God pleas continue pray. coz then u talk straight to "family" (that hard english word again)

Most say im an atheist for not belewing in God. but i do not se me as one.
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Old 07-27-2007, 06:12 AM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,595 posts, read 8,683,383 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishmom View Post
So you just don't believe there can be any perception with out a functioning brain. Therefore there is no spirit so to speak and that the body is all we have? What about the unconcious or dream state, our brains don't actively percieve these states but they are there...why can't that be attributed to the spiritual (for lack of a better word, if you have one throw it out for me)?
The dream state is actually, from my understanding, the brain "cataloging" all of your subconscious thoughts. This is why dreaming is often weird. However, it is still your brain processing information in one way or another. Just because we are unconscious or dreaming doesn't mean your brain is dead. Quite the opposite, if that were the case than heart rate and breathing would stop but these are involuntary reactions controlled by the brain. So, because we aren't conscious doesn't mean that the brain isn't doing the work.

And yes, I do not feel there can be perception without a brain. Now, there are weird phenoms of nature that can seem to be perceived this way. I think a good example is a venus fly trap. As an insect approaches the "mouth" of the trap, the "mouth" closes on its prey and "eats" it. Of course, this trap is not stimulated by brain function but a mere triggering of tiny cilia that force the "mouth" closed. I think you can see what I'm getting at here. You can wikipedia the venus fly trap and read more about it if you want.

I don't see how we can surmise that perception without a brain is possible. After all, to go back to existing outside of space and time, at what point do we enter the realm outside of space and time? Obviously, if God or a blissful state occur after death it must exist outside of space and time. So, at what point do we proceed past this point? Obviously, if a spirit is inside of us than it is existing within the confines of space and time. And upon death, if this spirit were to be "extracted" and sent outside the boundaries of space and time, I would imagine that there would be some sort of evidence for this. For me, to acknowledge that there is recognition of death and to have "presence of mind", no pun intended, might as well give me a logical reason to believe in God. However, I cannot find one good reason as to why something like a spirit could not only have collective thought after dying, but also exceed the boundaries of space and time to enter this heavenly state.
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Old 07-27-2007, 07:05 AM
 
Location: South Seattle Suburbs
2,793 posts, read 3,862,045 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishmom View Post
So you just don't believe there can be any perception with out a functioning brain. Therefore there is no spirit so to speak and that the body is all we have?
Show me where this spirit or soul exists in me. Then I'll believe in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by irishmom View Post
What about the unconcious or dream state, our brains don't actively percieve these states but they are there...why can't that be attributed to the spiritual (for lack of a better word, if you have one throw it out for me)?
Our brains create that state. ::shrug::
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Old 07-27-2007, 07:12 AM
 
7,463 posts, read 7,092,979 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishmom View Post
This is going to seem silly to all of you but here goes. Why can't you believe that there is an alternative state of life or spiritual being after death even if you don't believe in God?
It's not silly at all.

I personally find it impossible to believe that there is anything, (or anywhere) after I die. I believe that once our bodies cease to function, so too does our brain, our mind. Once consciousness ceases to exist, I am no longer capable of being aware of anything. I don't believe that consciousness exists after death.

I think that as human beings, death is the most threatening thing in our lives. We go to great lengths of deny it's existence: we all know we are going to die "some day," but I don't think we really "know" or accept it on any real, emotionally acceptable level. The most threatening thing for a very young child (up to about age 3 or so) is the loss of the primary care giver, usually the mother. Because the child knows on a very deep level that his existence is so very much dependant upon the mother, the threat of her loss instills what is called "annihilation anxiety." --The child feels that if mom died, he/she would literally cease to exist as well...It's all unconscious; it is very powerful, very threatening.

I think as adults, that same intrapsychic threat still exists. I have always wondered whether our conception of "heaven" or an afterlife is due in large part to man's inability to either address his own mortality or to accept his mortality. An afterlife provides two very important things: It ensures that I will "continue to go on" after I die, as well as providing me comfort on an incredibly deep level whenever I try and imagine my own self-extinction.

I AM NOT saying that those who believe in an afterlife are functioning on the same level they did as children. AM NOT!!! My mind and yours are both terrified of dying; we just construct different scenarios in terms of addressing it. I have attempted to explain why I believe an afterlife is such a central belief for just about everyone; every world religion addresses the question of life after death. For me, personally, I'm going with the notion that once my body and mind stop, so too will I.

It all just "stops" ...
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Old 07-27-2007, 07:18 AM
 
7,463 posts, read 7,092,979 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishmom View Post
You know my opinion, we'll all be in heaven saying "I told you so" and arguing the details of how that happened
...And for what it's worth, Irishmom, if I'm wrong, and there IS a heaven, then you know you would be one of the first on my list of "must see's" once I arrive there!!!!

(After Montana, of course!)
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Old 07-27-2007, 07:36 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 327,766 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
It's not silly at all.

I personally find it impossible to believe that there is anything, (or anywhere) after I die. I believe that once our bodies cease to function, so too does our brain, our mind. Once consciousness ceases to exist, I am no longer capable of being aware of anything. I don't believe that consciousness exists after death.

I think that as human beings, death is the most threatening thing in our lives. We go to great lengths of deny it's existence: we all know we are going to die "some day," but I don't think we really "know" or accept it on any real, emotionally acceptable level. The most threatening thing for a very young child (up to about age 3 or so) is the loss of the primary care giver, usually the mother. Because the child knows on a very deep level that his existence is so very much dependant upon the mother, the threat of her loss instills what is called "annihilation anxiety." --The child feels that if mom died, he/she would literally cease to exist as well...It's all unconscious; it is very powerful, very threatening.

I think as adults, that same intrapsychic threat still exists. I have always wondered whether our conception of "heaven" or an afterlife is due in large part to man's inability to either address his own mortality or to accept his mortality. An afterlife provides two very important things: It ensures that I will "continue to go on" after I die, as well as providing me comfort on an incredibly deep level whenever I try and imagine my own self-extinction.

I AM NOT saying that those who believe in an afterlife are functioning on the same level they did as children. AM NOT!!! My mind and yours are both terrified of dying; we just construct different scenarios in terms of addressing it. I have attempted to explain why I believe an afterlife is such a central belief for just about everyone; every world religion addresses the question of life after death. For me, personally, I'm going with the notion that once my body and mind stop, so too will I.

It all just "stops" ...
Very thought provoking and well-written post June.

I of course respect your opinion, but to me, it is a terrifying one. Perhaps I will be seen as not intellectually evolved for saying this, but the idea of absolute nothingness after death, of ceasing to exist, is just abhorrant to me. It grinds against all of my instincts.

I also do not understand the athiest stand point that we exist only as a body, with a brain, and that's it. No soul or spirit. Is there nothing in the world that is indefinable to you? Some things that can be seen and felt and processed by our brain but we cannot explain, like the supernatural, or ghosts, or a sixth sense, or...God?????

I myself am quite a logical person (for a Christian ). But I feel an internal, deeply rooted need for faith. I don't want to explain and rationalize every little tiny thing in existense.

We do not see things as they are. We see them as we are.--The Talmud

The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed. --Albert Einstein

Last edited by jeffncandace; 07-27-2007 at 08:04 AM..
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Old 07-27-2007, 08:00 AM
 
Location: Oxford, England
13,036 posts, read 15,133,031 times
Reputation: 19398
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
It's not silly at all.

I personally find it impossible to believe that there is anything, (or anywhere) after I die. I believe that once our bodies cease to function, so too does our brain, our mind. Once consciousness ceases to exist, I am no longer capable of being aware of anything. I don't believe that consciousness exists after death.

I think that as human beings, death is the most threatening thing in our lives. We go to great lengths of deny it's existence: we all know we are going to die "some day," but I don't think we really "know" or accept it on any real, emotionally acceptable level. The most threatening thing for a very young child (up to about age 3 or so) is the loss of the primary care giver, usually the mother. Because the child knows on a very deep level that his existence is so very much dependant upon the mother, the threat of her loss instills what is called "annihilation anxiety." --The child feels that if mom died, he/she would literally cease to exist as well...It's all unconscious; it is very powerful, very threatening.

I think as adults, that same intrapsychic threat still exists. I have always wondered whether our conception of "heaven" or an afterlife is due in large part to man's inability to either address his own mortality or to accept his mortality. An afterlife provides two very important things: It ensures that I will "continue to go on" after I die, as well as providing me comfort on an incredibly deep level whenever I try and imagine my own self-extinction.

I AM NOT saying that those who believe in an afterlife are functioning on the same level they did as children. AM NOT!!! My mind and yours are both terrified of dying; we just construct different scenarios in terms of addressing it. I have attempted to explain why I believe an afterlife is such a central belief for just about everyone; every world religion addresses the question of life after death. For me, personally, I'm going with the notion that once my body and mind stop, so too will I.

It all just "stops" ...


I completely agree. As far as I am concerned we live , we stop breathing, our heart stops beating, our brain functions stop and we die. Period. No biggie as far as I'm concerned.

I have no fear of death or of being worm food, it's part of a natural process and all that matters to me is to have had a good, decent and morally upright life, to have had fun, enjoyed life, travelled, read, loved and most of all to have been loved ! A whole lifetime of rich and varied experiences is all that I need.

Pain and becoming a burden to others does worry and frightens me but death does not in the slightest.

I do not believe in a deity, and though I find the nebulous concept of a soul very attractive in a romantic sort of way, I cannot see how it would work physiologically after my neurons and other neurological and brain functions have ceased to be... And as I don't believe in a non physical world, the after life really means incomprehensible to me. I need proof.

I see humans as a very complex bunch of physiological mechanisms which at some point just stop to work , short-circuit and break-down. Then we cease to exist as sentient human beings and it stops.

However as June7th says it I am proven wrong then so be it, we'll see and I would love to shake hands with many of you if we meet on the other side of the pearly gates) and admit I was wrong.

Though remember IrishMom, we atheists might also be right but sadly you and I will never get to find out !
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