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Old 06-01-2011, 07:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5 View Post
If Man got his morals from society, then the German era of the 1930-1940's led by Hitler was justified in slaughtering 6 million Jews and many thousands of Christians .
Actually the morals that lead to that came directly from Christianity and The Bible.


Quote:
If Man got his morals from society, then the last centuries ATHEIST Tyrants such as Hitler, Stalin, and Musselini were correct in murdering over 100,000,000 people collectively.
Except Hitler was a Christian. And none of the other guys killed in the name of atheism. They made up and enforced their own morals, much like Christianity and other man made religions do.
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Old 06-01-2011, 09:32 PM
 
40,084 posts, read 26,750,404 times
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Originally Posted by QuixoticHobbit View Post
Except Hitler was a Christian. And none of the other guys killed in the name of atheism. They made up and enforced their own morals, much like Christianity and other man made religions do.
All this "Your bad guys are badder than our bad guys" silliness aside . . . how on earth can the societal suppression and repression of belief in God NOT be in the name of Atheism???
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Old 06-01-2011, 11:24 PM
 
Location: Metromess
11,798 posts, read 21,984,404 times
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
. . . how on earth can the societal suppression and repression of belief in God NOT be in the name of Atheism???
I haven't noticed any "suppression and repression of belief in God". If anything, it is promoted more than it is repressed. Especially here in Texas.
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Old 06-02-2011, 06:32 AM
 
39,134 posts, read 10,857,554 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
All this "Your bad guys are badder than our bad guys" silliness aside . . . how on earth can the societal suppression and repression of belief in God NOT be in the name of Atheism???
Mystic, Mystic, your dishonesty is showing.

"And none of the other guys killed in the name of atheism."

is NOT the same as:
"societal suppression and repression of belief in God" (which, while being very loaded terms does come close to atheists showing that religious faith is not reasonable)

You are playing the old theist trick of equivocation: taking two different things and pretending that they are the same. As a Philosopher, you shouldn't need me to point that out.
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Old 06-02-2011, 10:59 AM
 
2,996 posts, read 4,920,462 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
You think this this better?

"When the churches literally ruled society, the human drama encompassed: (a) slavery; (b) the cruel subjection of women;(c)the most savage forms of legal punishment; (d) the absurd belief that kings ruled by divine right; (e) the daily imposition of physical abuse; (f) cold heartlessness for the sufferings of the poor; as well as (g) assorted pogroms ('ethnic cleansing' wars) between rival religions, capital punishment for literally hundreds of offenses, and countless other daily imposed moral outrages. . . . It was the free-thinking, challenging work by people of conscience, who almost invariably had to defy the religious and political status quo of their times, that brought us out of such darkness."
Steve Allen
IN ORDER : Slavery was abolished by such Christian Leaders as William Wilberforce in England which was the catalyst for slavery being abolished in the U.S. The Bible gave stringent guidelines and moral laws on how slavery was to be conducted in a culture where slavery was popular , both for the Master as well as the Slave. Christ restored dignity and instrinsic worth to women in a culture where women were seen as second class citizens. It is fair and equitable for a person to recieve an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth...no more and no less for the crime committed -- it would deter crime in our modern times instead of a Perpetrator getting probation for battering a woman or child as an example. Jesus teachings are all for the preservation of the poor and defenseless. The highest form of morality and ethics are found in the Bibles 10 Commandments and teachings of Christ , so if you embrace morality then you should support Biblical mandates .

While many Leaders CLAIM they are acting in the name of God to justify moral crimes on the populus ...they arent necessarily OF God -- big difference. ANd that is the depravity of Man , not Gods fault .

Finally, it is the 'free thinking' atheistic ideologies to maximize Mans authority and chosen (moral degrading) lifestyles that has always contributed to definitive consequences ... especially in our current American Society ; the further people depart from Godly virtues and what the Creator intended thru absolute moral laws for our own protection, the worse we shall reap what we sow. There isnt anything more dangerous to a person or a nation than the promotion of godLESSness thru the philosophical bias of 'free thinking' thereby putting SELF on the throne instead of the Creators rightful place.

Last edited by 007.5; 06-02-2011 at 11:09 AM..
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Old 06-02-2011, 11:05 AM
 
2,996 posts, read 4,920,462 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuixoticHobbit View Post
Actually the morals that lead to that came directly from Christianity and The Bible.




Except Hitler was a Christian. And none of the other guys killed in the name of atheism. They made up and enforced their own morals, much like Christianity and other man made religions do.
The 10 Commandments in the Bible and Jesus teachings are for the preservation of life thru civil living. Hitler was raised in Roman Catholicism for a limited time but obviously it didnt influence his pathetic life enough since he woefully chose the direct constructs of atheism and the devastating consquences of Darwinnian Evolutions Survival of 'the Fittest' . The other Tyrants killed directly in the name and constructs of Atheism 'for a better society thru extermination' . They enforced their own atheistic agendas thru embracing moral relativism and we now can all see how it played out. Christianity isnt 'manmade'... its God made with God reaching down to sinful Man who needs redemption and that is the central theme thruout the entire Bible --- . Therefore, you err .
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Old 06-02-2011, 11:17 AM
 
Location: New Zealand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5 View Post
The Bible gave stringent guidelines and moral laws on how slavery was to be conducted in a culture where slavery was popular , both for the Master as well as the Slave.
So which is it? As long as you follow the Biblical principles, it's okay to own slaves? Or is it wrong? If it is wrong to own slaves, why didn't the Bible forbid it? Because it was popular in society at the time, so the Bible was simply being "sensitive" to the times? So the Bible's "morality" is flexible with the times? Homosexuality was also popular/accepted in society at the time, but the Bible didn't have any problems condemning that as a terrible sin. Why not slavery too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5
While many Leaders CLAIM they are acting in the name of God to justify moral crimes on the populus ...they arent necessarily OF God -- big difference. ANd that is the depravity of Man , not Gods fault .
I love this argument...if they are good/moral, then they're Godly, if they're bad/immoral, then they're obviously not Godly. Unfalsifiable claims like that do not make for a rational discussion.
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Old 06-02-2011, 02:42 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,310 posts, read 10,345,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5 View Post
If Man got his morals from society, then the German era of the 1930-1940's led by Hitler was justified in slaughtering 6 million Jews and many thousands of Christians . If Man got his morals from society, then the last centuries ATHEIST Tyrants such as Hitler, Stalin, and Musselini were correct in murdering over 100,000,000 people collectively. If morals are relative to a society or to a situation, then its just Ones opinion since nothing is absolute for all people everywhere ... which makes virtually everything permissable . In fact, it is this atheistic construct that has contributed to all of our societal ills in America from the many forms of sexual hedonism, to walk in abortion , to blatant useage of profanity in public settings , et al . Its the personal internalized philosophy of : ' No one is going to tell me how to live my life' (most of all The Creator of the entire Universe so we'll just grasp at excuses why he shouldnt exist for justification of how we want to live AKA: Willful deciet) .

The interesting thing about the atheistic construct of 'moral relativism' is that the practicing atheist wants the freedom that moral relativism brings him/her...BUT, they expect and demand that others treat them in accordance to absolute moral standards of honesty, fairness, equity, respect, and dignity ALL the time , in every situation, from everyone . (Slightly hypocritical id say) .

YouTube - ‪Riso do MUTLEY‬‏
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Old 06-02-2011, 02:55 PM
 
2,996 posts, read 4,920,462 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzz View Post
So which is it? As long as you follow the Biblical principles, it's okay to own slaves? Or is it wrong? If it is wrong to own slaves, why didn't the Bible forbid it? Because it was popular in society at the time, so the Bible was simply being "sensitive" to the times? So the Bible's "morality" is flexible with the times? Homosexuality was also popular/accepted in society at the time, but the Bible didn't have any problems condemning that as a terrible sin. Why not slavery too?

I love this argument...if they are good/moral, then they're Godly, if they're bad/immoral, then they're obviously not Godly. Unfalsifiable claims like that do not make for a rational discussion.
In order :

1. THe difference between homosexuality and slavery is that slavery wasnt a deviant lifestyle sin nor a compulsive sexual addiction. We still have forms of 'slavery' today in a broad sense when you consider a wealthy owner of a Mansion having butlers, maids, security personnel, and grounds-keepers catering to his every whim. There are many simular scenarios to this in modern times . In fact, in a philosophical sense, we are ALL slaves to that which has mastered us ... with many forms of addictive substances and behaviors included.

2. The Bible bucked the popular culture at the time of Masters treating Slaves poorly by setting down moral mandates for Masters to follow as well as what is to be expected from Slaves so a maximized civil relationship could be had by both. Many slaves in those days were treated well by their Counterparts given their loyalty and hard work. It is the BIble that attempted to restore personal intrinsic worth and dignity to slaves .

3. Slavery was not the violation of an absolute moral law like two men making love with each others feces was (and is today) .

4. SInce its God that is THE Moral Law Prescriber to which our very own Bill of Rights makes reference to, then yes...that which is moral, ethical,pure, righteous, etc... IS Godly ...and that which runs counter to these virtues are therefore vices which are UNgodly. Its really quite simple and you even have a moral conscience that is the manifestation of the Moral Law written on every human beings heart which you have the freewill choice of either suppressing to satisfy your own agenda , or, to obey because its the absolutely correct thing to do regardless of feelings, urges, opinion, or whimsical desires. How do you feel about the expectation for you to live in a moral, ethical, and upright manner ; is it an affront to your autonomy or is it welcomed ? If youre at least 40 years of age, im willing to bet your Parents taught you the difference between right from wrong and trusted you would want to follow a right path in life. Would i be correct in this presumption , or, have i succumbed to 'an unfalsified claim' that theres no difference/standard in whats right from wrong ?

Last edited by 007.5; 06-02-2011 at 03:05 PM..
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Old 06-02-2011, 06:38 PM
 
16,102 posts, read 17,903,536 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5 View Post
In order :


4. SInce its God that is THE Moral Law Prescriber to which our very own Bill of Rights makes reference to, then yes...that which is moral, ethical,pure, righteous, etc... IS Godly ...and that which runs counter to these virtues are therefore vices which are UNgodly. Its really quite simple and you even have a moral conscience that is the manifestation of the Moral Law written on every human beings heart which you have the freewill choice of either suppressing to satisfy your own agenda , or, to obey because its the absolutely correct thing to do regardless of feelings, urges, opinion, or whimsical desires. How do you feel about the expectation for you to live in a moral, ethical, and upright manner ; is it an affront to your autonomy or is it welcomed ? If youre at least 40 years of age, im willing to bet your Parents taught you the difference between right from wrong and trusted you would want to follow a right path in life. Would i be correct in this presumption , or, have i succumbed to 'an unfalsified claim' that theres no difference/standard in whats right from wrong ?

The Bill of Rights does not make reference to God

Bill of Rights Transcript

Quote:
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
The Declaration of Independence makes reference to a *creator* that may or may not have been the Christian god. In fact, it probably was not, but was the Blind Watchmaker creator of the deists.

The Declaration of Independence

Quote:
When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
Those who argue that our government was based upon Christian principles forget that the Declaration of Independence did not form our government, but simply set forth the reasons why the colonies needed to separate from England.
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