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Old 04-26-2011, 09:49 AM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Again false. As I said... claims were made and I investigated those claims. Trying to annoy people might not be science, but not investigating a claim because it might annoy people is ALSO not science. I will, when possible, investigate the claims people make. I will not stop simply because they find my investigations personally offensive. That is their problem if they are offended, not mine. There is no onus on me even to listen to them.... let alone pander to them.



I have found many and you want just someONE?. Go to the isgodimaginary website and look at the posts of the user "D M". He believes it..... there is ONE.

On the off chance one is not enough.... despite that being EXACTLY what you asked for.....

What of the people I refer to above who think that my possessing such crackers is akin to kidnapping real people and torturing them... because they think the cracker really is Jesus....

Go read the "crackergate" posts mentioned here and the comments on that post and you will see many many people who believe it. ....

Take for example this priest in Ireland complaining about the zero tolerance to drink driving in Ireland who thinks that it is the blood of Jesus but it just happens to look like wine, taste like wine, and act exactly like wine when in the body.....

"I don't like to use the word wine, as it is Christ's blood in the Eucharist -- but it still has all the characteristics of wine when in the blood stream."

I could go on for ages listing people who really believe this stuff. You just wanted 1.



Yes and sometimes investigating and showing to be false the claims of others is the method by which it does so. Science is not solely about discovering new things, but also about falsifying old things. Investigating, for example, the claims of homeopaths and showing their claims are baseless, unfounded and useless IS furthering Human Knowledge. Thankfully people who did such investigations were not stopped by charlatans claiming they are "offended" by the research.

The offense card is simple played by charlatans and liars who know that the research is not going to be good for them.
We could go on and on here, but the fact remains that you have proved nothing and accomplished nothing, other than making some people mad.

Let me know when you get your "study" published in Scientific American; maybe then I'll stop calling it childish and stupid.
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Old 04-27-2011, 02:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
We could go on and on here, but the fact remains that you have proved nothing and accomplished nothing, other than making some people mad.
I was not out to prove anything, but to simply show that certain claims were unfounded. I repeat what I said in the last post, Science is not only about proving new things, or discovering new things, but taking existing claims and falsifying them. This is just as important, in some cases more so, than discovering new things.

What I have shown is that such crackers are identical in every measurable way to "normal" crackers. Those that do claim (and I know not all people do, I merely talk of those that do) that there is a literal transformation in the crackers are making what I have now shown to be entirely baseless claims.

I refer again to my comparison to homeopathy. Science has not "shown" that homeopathy does not work. Science does not prove negatives. What it has shown is that thinking it does work is an entirely baseless position to hold in every case other than mere placebo. Like me, no scientists who have investigated the claims that water has magic properties have "proven" anything. Does that make their research any less valid or important?

Not in the slightest.

And more importantly such scientists were not stopped in their research and inquiry by whining homeopathic touting charlatans and liars who stamped their feet and regurgitated canards like "Oh we feel so offended you do not take our word for it".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
I'll stop calling it childish and stupid.
I care not what you call me as one of my favorite rules in life is "Insults demean only the insulter NEVER the target". If insults are the rhetoric you wish to lower yourself to then thats your choice. I will neither worry about it, nor lower myself to join you on that level. To me, if someone has nothing but insults to turn to to back up their position, then this says much about them and their quality of thought/argument and nothing at all about me and as such stopping you from calling me names would really serve my ends less than sitting back and letting you act in such a fashion. You let no one down but yourself by throwing insults around.
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Old 04-28-2011, 04:53 AM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,969,835 times
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If this was Catholic Eucharist we aren't "Open Communion." The hosts are only to be given to members who have no mortal sins, they know of, are on their soul. So it was an infringement on a community.

I know atheists have no belief an object or place can be sacred, making them unlike virtually every culture since humans could speak, but still I'd like to think most atheists do have an ability to emotionally connect. And in many cases people emotionally connect to objects. Like say wedding rings. Let's say you want to know the exact percent gold the material of a woman's ring is made up of so you ask to see it then melt it down without telling her in advance that was your plan. You then can judge whatever claim she or the husband made on its gold content. It's science! And also likely to tick the couple off.

Things like what you do are an extreme act of cultural insensitivity. It would be like if I say managed to obtain a sacred feather from an American Indian, then tore it to pieces and ran it through DNA analysis to determine if it was really eagle as claimed, and after that told him the results. Still it's not too surprising as the kind of atheists I've discussed with this on the issue would likely do that too. They are lacking in empathy or common courtesy or what have you. (Most atheists have empathy, common courtesy, etc. Activist uber-rationalistic atheists are more like well "differently wired" is the politest word I can come up with) The people who threatened you may have greater deficiencies, but still their flaws don't make yours disappear.

Besides that you really didn't prove anything. Catholicism says the incidents, the physical things you study, remain unleavened bread. (They are not "crackers", that's just an insulting term some equally empathy deprived fool devised.) Catholics are Metaphysical Naturalists nor do we see our religion as involving purely natural events that can be put in a microscope. So yes you did prove you don't know what you're talking about, but I'd say it wasn't worth the effort.

Last edited by Thomas R.; 04-28-2011 at 05:06 AM..
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Old 04-28-2011, 07:08 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,281,714 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
The hosts are only to be given to members who have no mortal sins, they know of, are on their soul. So it was an infringement on a community.
Says you. I did not see this written, mentioned, indicated or anything in any way when I went into the buildings in questions. They just hand them out. If you are handing out free samples and there is some conditions attached to accepting that product... the onus is on you to make that clear... not on the "mark" to ask.

Anyway, technically I qualify given I do not believe in soul OR sin, so I have no mortal sins that I know of on my soul so I do not see what your issue is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
I know atheists have no belief an object or place can be sacred
I was not concerning myself with whether it was sacred or not. I also have no doubt that things, people, places, music and much more can become important to a person. I have many such things myself.

I was concerning myself solely with people who claim that there was a literal transformation during the ceremony. If you or anyone else is not of the group of people who claim this... then nothing I have written has anything to do with you at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
then melt it down without telling her in advance that was your plan.
Not a good analogy as that would be theft, and the destruction of private property. I did no such thing. I operated ONLY with something that was willingly, openly, without any verbal or written conditions, simply handed to me for free.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Things like what you do are an extreme act of cultural insensitivity.
So what? People who think homeopathy works could say the same thing when their claims are investigated. The people selling lies such as fortune telling, speaking to dead relatives from the astral planes, or performing faith healing could too. There is very few people making false claims that could NOT hide behind the "offence" canard. It is just a cop out by people who are making outrageous and baseless claims.... and then finding every excuse they can to make sure no one checks those claims.

I am simply one of many people who do not pander to such trickery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Besides that you really didn't prove anything.
I proved that in every way it is possible to test, that the crackers are the same before and after the ceremony. That is all I did. That is all I wanted to do. That is all I am capable of doing.

This shows that anyone who is claiming, and I know not everyone is, that there is a LITERAL change.... are making a baseless claim for which they have quite literally no evidence... no arguments.... no data.... and no reasons to lend even a modicum of credence to.

As I said, if that is NOT the claim YOU make, then nothing I wrote has anything to do with you. Those people for whom the entire ceremony is symbolic are people I have no disagreement with whatsoever. I partake of ceremonies myself with symbolic events and objects in them. Symbolism is a good thing, I support it. It is however important to realise that just because a symbol holds importance to you... no one else is obliged or admonished to feel the same. If people want to wave a cracker around reverently as a symbol of their King, thats great, I hope they enjoy it and it brings them much happiness. I can even envy them that happiness without fret.

How I treat the same cracker however is my business, just as how they treat it is theirs. I will never move to stop what they are doing or complain about it. I expect the same in return.

I repeat however, this is NOT what this thread is about. The thread is about the skewed priorities that exist in our world when some people can be outraged at the treatment of a cracker, while others can go in and wantonly destroy private property and use violence towards the security personnel protecting said property.

Last edited by Nozzferrahhtoo; 04-28-2011 at 07:17 AM..
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Old 04-28-2011, 07:36 AM
 
Location: playing in the colorful Colorado dirt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
I don't understand why you would feel the need to lift yourself up by insulting and denegrading something that has deep symbolic meaning to someone else.

It's like peeing on the flag; sure it's physically just a piece of colored fabric, but people died for that piece of cloth and you reap the benefits of their sacrifice.

It's juvenile behavior and you make the rest of us heathens look bad.

Yo boy, leave 'dem crackers alone, ya hear?!
HE makes YOU look bad!?!
Forgive me for just jumping in here but, if anyone is making Christians look bad, it's other Christians.
I can't count the number of times i've been accosted in parking lots by Christians telling me that because I don't believe what they do, or dress as they dress (i'll never give up my shorts/tanks), or act as they act (like dipshidiots) that i'm going to burn in the eternal flames of Hell!
I can however count the number of times that i've encountered atheists or agnostics exhibiting similar behavior, NONE!

But, of course, they're only exercising their first amendment rights...

So, tell me which group is the one that looks bad?

PS: i've never been harassed by a member of the scientific community either!
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Old 04-28-2011, 04:33 PM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Says you.
And my priest and every priest probably. The rules don't need to be spelled out every week because we know them already. For that matter you can find them online pretty easily or even on some TV shows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Anyway, technically I qualify given I do not believe in soul OR sin, so I have no mortal sins that I know of on my soul so I do not see what your issue is.
I acknowledged that your experiment proves you're an ignorant and insensitive person. Most of the rest of your post seems intent on proving that further and even celebrating it.

I'm sure I'm ignorant about many cultures too. I'm just not sure I need to prove it as intensely as you seem to need or to revel in it.
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Old 04-29-2011, 01:08 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,281,714 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
And my priest and every priest probably.
I do not deal in probably. Or in anecdote. Especially unverifiable anecdote. They are handing out free crackers. If there is conditions attached to the acceptance of free samples of ANY product it is up to the distributer to make them clear. They did not. They do not. The problem lies with them therefore. Not me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
The rules don't need to be spelled out every week because we know them already.
False. Conditions of sale, or free distribution you DO have to spell out the rules every time. Just because some people claim to know them, does not mean others do. The onus for letting the customer know that there is a condition attached to a sale or free sample lies SOLELY with the distributer. Not us the consumer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
I acknowledged that your experiment proves you're an ignorant and insensitive person.
So while I have done nothing actually wrong, you have reduced yourself to insult. Learn this rule as it is a good one in life: Insult demeans only the insulter NEVER the target. Ever. If name calling is all you can reduce yourself to then this says more about you than it does about me. You should consider raising your game some. It is not mature, and I am pretty sure from what I have read it is not Christian either.

Again:

1) SOME people have made very specific claims that a certain object, during a certain ritual, goes under a "literal" change. I have investigated those claims and found them to be baseless. That is all. I was well within my rights to do so too.

2) My experiments is NOT what this thread is about. What it is about is the comparison of the priorities of people who would protect the well being of freely distributed crackers, while simultaneously would destroy private property and use violence against actual human beings. If you want to make it all about me, so be it, but that is not the intention of this thread.
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Old 04-29-2011, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,143 posts, read 19,199,152 times
Reputation: 14007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
I was not out to prove anything, but to simply show that certain claims were unfounded. I repeat what I said in the last post, Science is not only about proving new things, or discovering new things, but taking existing claims and falsifying them. This is just as important, in some cases more so, than discovering new things.

What I have shown is that such crackers are identical in every measurable way to "normal" crackers. Those that do claim (and I know not all people do, I merely talk of those that do) that there is a literal transformation in the crackers are making what I have now shown to be entirely baseless claims.

I refer again to my comparison to homeopathy. Science has not "shown" that homeopathy does not work. Science does not prove negatives. What it has shown is that thinking it does work is an entirely baseless position to hold in every case other than mere placebo. Like me, no scientists who have investigated the claims that water has magic properties have "proven" anything. Does that make their research any less valid or important?

Not in the slightest.

And more importantly such scientists were not stopped in their research and inquiry by whining homeopathic touting charlatans and liars who stamped their feet and regurgitated canards like "Oh we feel so offended you do not take our word for it".



I care not what you call me as one of my favorite rules in life is "Insults demean only the insulter NEVER the target". If insults are the rhetoric you wish to lower yourself to then thats your choice. I will neither worry about it, nor lower myself to join you on that level. To me, if someone has nothing but insults to turn to to back up their position, then this says much about them and their quality of thought/argument and nothing at all about me and as such stopping you from calling me names would really serve my ends less than sitting back and letting you act in such a fashion. You let no one down but yourself by throwing insults around.

Fine, fine.. go ahead and do your silly cracker thing.

But if you ever try to mock my sacred Sunday ritual (the washing and annointing of the holy assault rifle, celebrated in similitude of my forefather's efforts to create a world of freedom, truth and cheesy gun-crazy ultraviolent 80's movies) you will be sorry...
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Old 04-29-2011, 01:49 PM
 
Location: Metromess
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It all seems like a rather pointless action to me, offering only the result of bad PR. Of course I don't believe in the mystical transubstantiation thing, but proving that such beliefs are unfounded to the flock is going to take a lot more than that.
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Old 04-29-2011, 05:01 PM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,969,835 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
I do not deal in probably.
Well you should, the real world of social interaction isn't always absolute. Basically though it's clear that the Eucharist is not simply to be handed out to just anyone. There are priests who may not follow the rules, hence the probably, but the rules exist.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
False. Conditions of sale, or free distribution you DO have to spell out the rules every time. Just because some people claim to know them, does not mean others do. The onus for letting the customer know that there is a condition attached to a sale or free sample lies SOLELY with the distributer. Not us the consumer.
This is just legalism to defend your actions. I don't think I was even saying your actions are technically illegal just that they are fraud and theft in human terms.

If a wedding fails to have a guard or pronounce that "only the invited guests are allowed", because they assume that's understood, maybe it's perfectly legal to pretend to be a relative and take as much free booze as you want. It's still wrong and gauche. There is an unspoken oral agreement with a Church. That you can ignore that as not legally binding doesn't make it unreal.

And I have to admit this kind of thing is why atheists, some atheists, seem much more ghastly to me than they used to. I am a disbeliever in Thor or Vishnu as an atheist would say, but I'm not determined to prove there is no Vishnu or Thor. I'm not going to go to their shrines take a free religious statue or candle and then play goofy games with it. Many atheists seem to be taking the worst element of Christian missionary behavior, the element that involved mocking or destroying the sacred objects of others, and claiming it for their own. And I find that both sad and baffling. You've come a long way since Asimov and Sagan I guess, going back more to the Wellsian aggressive types, which is a pity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
So while I have done nothing actually wrong, you have reduced yourself to insult.
Saying that you're ignorant and insensitive may sound like an insult, as it was to a large extent, but it's also just the most likely hypothesis I draw from this conversation. Being ignorant isn't the same as being dumb. Everyone is ignorant of something. And I'm pretty insensitive myself at times. It's likely a sign of immaturity, not malice. The things you say make me think you might be just clueless and not malicious.

So you might be an intelligent, funny, and even generous person who's also ignorant and insensitive about certain things.
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