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Old 04-20-2011, 12:23 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,277,459 times
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I engaged in a series of experiments on crackers which were obtained freely by people literally giving them out in churches.

I still possess some too. The emails I got from some people varied from the occasional death threat, to unbridled rage, to people actually comparing my possession of said crackers to them kidnapping a member of my family and torturing them.

Crackers. Free ones. Given out freely. The same as torture and kidnapping?

Yet this group went into a museum. They threatened violence on real people, such as the security guards, with implements such as hammers, and they then engaged in the destruction of private property to deface not one but at least two artworks (regardless of your own opinion of art).

Priorities are seriously skewed in the minds of some it seems if they think using violence against real people to destroy private property is comparable to engaging in scientific experiment of freely distributed crackers. I am honestly confounded as to how the minds of such people are operating.
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Old 04-20-2011, 06:54 AM
 
1,745 posts, read 1,883,611 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
I engaged in a series of experiments on crackers which were obtained freely by people literally giving them out in churches.

I still possess some too. The emails I got from some people varied from the occasional death threat, to unbridled rage, to people actually comparing my possession of said crackers to them kidnapping a member of my family and torturing them.

Crackers. Free ones. Given out freely. The same as torture and kidnapping?
Sounds a bit like P.Z. Myer's "Crackergate" incident in which he also received death threats and other nasty e-mails for piercing a cracker with a nail:

PZ Myers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Scroll down to the section titled "Eucharist controversy"

Here is Myer's blog entry from 2008 in which he posts a photo of the pierced cracker:
The Great Desecration : Pharyngula
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Old 04-20-2011, 07:19 AM
 
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You're dealing with people who think that crackers magically turn into their god if you chant the right words, and you're surprised they don't react rationally about the rest of their religious beliefs? I think your expectations are a bit too high.
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Old 04-20-2011, 08:31 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuixoticHobbit View Post
Sounds a bit like P.Z. Myer's "Crackergate" incident
Yea, good comparison I guess, I am very much aware of that incident. It was long after I actually did my "experiments" but I am glad to know I was not alone in engaging in such experiments.

However our motivations were different. I genuinely took the scientific method to the crackers to observe the results. Myers did what he did as a protest response to how a student was treated following removing one of these crackers from the building in which he received it.

The point of this thread however is different. It is merely to highlight the vast difference in priorities at work in the mind of people between those that think using violence on people and vandalism on private property.... is somehow justifiable while me possessing a cracker is not. Especially when my possession of said crackers has been likened to the kidnap and torture of actual people.

The thread is merely an expression of exasperation that such a dichotomy of ideas and priorities actually exists, the value of people and property can be placed on the same level as the value of stale tasting and very unremarkable pieces of food.
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Old 04-20-2011, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,143 posts, read 19,184,528 times
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I don't understand why you would feel the need to lift yourself up by insulting and denegrading something that has deep symbolic meaning to someone else.

It's like peeing on the flag; sure it's physically just a piece of colored fabric, but people died for that piece of cloth and you reap the benefits of their sacrifice.

It's juvenile behavior and you make the rest of us heathens look bad.

Yo boy, leave 'dem crackers alone, ya hear?!
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Old 04-21-2011, 12:58 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Chango View Post
I don't understand why you would feel the need to lift yourself up by insulting and denegrading something that has deep symbolic meaning to someone else.
I have done no such thing. The whole point of science is to investigate claims. There were claims being made about crackers... so I investigated them. If people make claims then we should very much be allowed investigate those claims. I am simply not put off, or impressed, by people claiming that such investigations are some how offensive to them. OF COURSE they are offensive.... if one is making claims that one simply has no reasons or evidence to back up.... one of the first things one is going to do is try every shoddy trick in the book to ensure no one checks out if they are true or not. "Offence" is just one of the easier cards for charlatans to play.

All this means that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
It's like peeing on the flag; sure it's physically just a piece of colored fabric, but people died for that piece of cloth and you reap the benefits of their sacrifice.
... no it is nothing similar at all, because no one is making any magical, testable claims about the flag. If people want to die for a flag then so be it. It has nothing to do with you or me. However Clearly people are not dying for a flag, they died for ideals that the flag is merely used to represent.

However it is important to point out that this thread is not about me OR the experiments I engaged in, but about the differences in the priorities between people who worry about crackers, and people who worry about actual people and private property. Try not to make the thread about me.
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Old 04-22-2011, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,143 posts, read 19,184,528 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
I have done no such thing. The whole point of science is to investigate claims. There were claims being made about crackers... so I investigated them. If people make claims then we should very much be allowed investigate those claims. I am simply not put off, or impressed, by people claiming that such investigations are some how offensive to them. OF COURSE they are offensive.... if one is making claims that one simply has no reasons or evidence to back up.... one of the first things one is going to do is try every shoddy trick in the book to ensure no one checks out if they are true or not. "Offence" is just one of the easier cards for charlatans to play.

All this means that...



... no it is nothing similar at all, because no one is making any magical, testable claims about the flag. If people want to die for a flag then so be it. It has nothing to do with you or me. However Clearly people are not dying for a flag, they died for ideals that the flag is merely used to represent.

However it is important to point out that this thread is not about me OR the experiments I engaged in, but about the differences in the priorities between people who worry about crackers, and people who worry about actual people and private property. Try not to make the thread about me.
Real science examines/tests with the intent of furthering human knowledge. Trying to **** people off isn't science.

Sorry, but if it looks like a turd, smells like a turd and tastes like turd...well, you know the rest.
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Old 04-22-2011, 02:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Real science examines/tests with the intent of furthering human knowledge. Trying to **** people off isn't science.

Sorry, but if it looks like a turd, smells like a turd and tastes like turd...well, you know the rest.
If religious beliefs cannot stand up to scientific scrutiny, perhaps it's time to change those beliefs.
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Old 04-22-2011, 02:39 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,143 posts, read 19,184,528 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury Cougar View Post
If religious beliefs cannot stand up to scientific scrutiny, perhaps it's time to change those beliefs.

Someone find me someone who really, truly, honestly believes the Eucharist (and it's many spin-offs) is real, juicy Jesus steak right off the bone.


Science is meant to forward human knowledge and this kind of stuff is "scientific scrutiny" like our beloved "Flying Spagetti Monster" is practicing religion.

Practitioners know they are working with symbolism, we can give them that, at least. I never said the beliefs were true...only that ridiculing and insulting such beliefs are not a great way to help people grow out of them.
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Old 04-26-2011, 05:24 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,277,459 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Real science examines/tests with the intent of furthering human knowledge. Trying to **** people off isn't science.
Again false. As I said... claims were made and I investigated those claims. Trying to annoy people might not be science, but not investigating a claim because it might annoy people is ALSO not science. I will, when possible, investigate the claims people make. I will not stop simply because they find my investigations personally offensive. That is their problem if they are offended, not mine. There is no onus on me even to listen to them.... let alone pander to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Someone find me someone who really, truly, honestly believes the Eucharist (and it's many spin-offs) is real, juicy Jesus steak right off the bone.
I have found many and you want just someONE?. Go to the isgodimaginary website and look at the posts of the user "D M". He believes it..... there is ONE.

On the off chance one is not enough.... despite that being EXACTLY what you asked for.....

What of the people I refer to above who think that my possessing such crackers is akin to kidnapping real people and torturing them... because they think the cracker really is Jesus....

Go read the "crackergate" posts mentioned here and the comments on that post and you will see many many people who believe it. ....

Take for example this priest in Ireland complaining about the zero tolerance to drink driving in Ireland who thinks that it is the blood of Jesus but it just happens to look like wine, taste like wine, and act exactly like wine when in the body.....

"I don't like to use the word wine, as it is Christ's blood in the Eucharist -- but it still has all the characteristics of wine when in the blood stream."

I could go on for ages listing people who really believe this stuff. You just wanted 1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Science is meant to forward human knowledge
Yes and sometimes investigating and showing to be false the claims of others is the method by which it does so. Science is not solely about discovering new things, but also about falsifying old things. Investigating, for example, the claims of homeopaths and showing their claims are baseless, unfounded and useless IS furthering Human Knowledge. Thankfully people who did such investigations were not stopped by charlatans claiming they are "offended" by the research.

The offense card is simple played by charlatans and liars who know that the research is not going to be good for them.
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