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Old 05-09-2011, 06:48 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,813,517 times
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Why Do I debate?
Good question.
I usually debate because I want to find out why people do what they do, so I can more accurately figger out why I do the things that I do.
And I always debate people I disagree with because I see no point in debating people I agree with.

When it comes to debating religion my problem is that I have no idea whether I'm an atheist or a theist.
Like most atheists I don't accept things because other people tell me to; I don’t accept anything on blind faith.
And like theists I acknowledge that there are things that are bigger than my personal ego, like love.
To me love means acknowledging that someone else at the very least is as important as myself.
But unlike most atheists I find creativity (or emotion) more important than logic. This is why I find my personal experience more important than someone else’s knowledge (or logic).
One could even say that I'm convinced that logic without emotion is useless.

I guess the difference between Europeans and Americans is that in Europe atheism ( or maybe it is more accurately to say: not being a Christian?) is not that big of a deal like in the US?
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Old 05-09-2011, 09:05 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,310 posts, read 10,355,258 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
When it comes to debating religion my problem is that I have no idea whether I'm an atheist or a theist.
It's really very easy to know Tricky. There is just the one question to address and that is:

Do have a belief in the existence of gods?

If you don't then you are' a-theist'.
If you do believe in the existence of gods you are 'theist'.


Quote:
I guess the difference between Europeans and Americans is that in Europe atheism ( or maybe it is more accurately to say: not being a Christian?) is not that big of a deal like in the US?
It doesn't matter a damn here!
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Old 05-09-2011, 10:04 AM
 
1,429 posts, read 2,112,109 times
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Tricky - atheism isn't about ego, its not about saying "I'm the most important thing here, God be damned!" In fact, I think you have it backwards - religion is about ego. To follow a religion you're required to claim all other religions, everyone who ever believed in them - as wrong. Does it matter that on the other side of the world the people there feel the exact same strength in their beliefs as religious followers here? Nope! Does it matter that centuries ago some anonymous Viking died 100% believing he was going to valhalla? Nope! To be a Christian is to say those people are all wrong, but I am right.

So if you're looking for the "everyone is an equal, just as important as myself" attitude - atheism is about the only place you will find it. An atheist says "humans are emotional, religion is an emotional experience, and as such people fill the emotional gap with faith and religion. No belief is more correct than any other, as they are all emotional fillers. As a human I have the same need, I just think logically, view the situation within scope, and don't automatically buy into 'religious proofs.' We are all just living our 77 plus or minus years on this earth, we each have just as much right to fill the emotional gap with faith (or not to) as everyone else, their life is just as equal and important as mine."

Creativity and emotion are all important, I'm a musician, I write music, so they're big parts of my life. However when it comes to critically thinking, that's not a job for emotion. Atheists are all human too, we have emotions just the same as everyone else, we're not cold emotionless machines. We just don't use emotion as the driving force when we're asked to think logically through an issue.
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Old 05-09-2011, 03:21 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,813,517 times
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Originally Posted by TheEarthBeneathMe
Quote:
In fact, I think you have it backwards - religion is about ego. To follow a religion you're required to claim all other religions, everyone who ever believed in them - as wrong.
Aren't you confusing religion with monotheism?
If ya ask me monotheism (there is only 1 god or 1 truth) has more to do with the ego than religion in general.

And to be honest, I believe that the more atheism resembles monotheism the more it starts to becomes a religion like Christianity.

Quote:
We just don't use emotion as the driving force when we're asked to think logically through an issue.
Still thinking logically is no guaranty that you will not deviate from reality.
Logic and reality are 2 different things.


Originally Posted by Rafius
Quote:
It's really very easy to know Tricky. There is just the one question to address and that is:

Do have a belief in the existence of gods?
I believe that God=love, which doesn't mean that I believe that God is some father figure who lives in the sky and is judging his creation.
I have loved and have been loved therefore I have proof that my God exists.
FYI I don't believe in an afterlife although I do believe that life on Earth can be heaven or hell.
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Old 05-09-2011, 05:33 PM
 
1,429 posts, read 2,112,109 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by TheEarthBeneathMe Aren't you confusing religion with monotheism?
If ya ask me monotheism (there is only 1 god or 1 truth) has more to do with the ego than religion in general.
Monotheism is a type of religion, so no...
And I don't believe polytheism fits the role you're attempting to give it (as in, its not the Christian God, the Norse Gods, the Indian Gods, all the Pagan Gods living in harmony together..)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
And to be honest, I believe that the more atheism resembles monotheism the more it starts to becomes a religion like Christianity.

Still thinking logically is no guaranty that you will not deviate from reality.
Logic and reality are 2 different things.
How does Atheism resemble the belief in One God? Atheism is more...people are emotional, religion fills an emotional need, yada yada yada.

I think you need to brush up on what critical thinking means, the scientific method, etc etc.
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Old 05-09-2011, 09:35 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,310 posts, read 10,355,258 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
I believe that God=love, which doesn't mean that I believe that God is some father figure who lives in the sky and is judging his creation.
I think that's a cop out Tricky!! 'Do you have a belief in the existence of gods' was the question.
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Old 05-10-2011, 04:28 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,813,517 times
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Originally Posted by Rafius
Quote:
I think that's a cop out Tricky!!
Nope it isn't.
All I'm saying is that I have no problem with substituting God with love.
FYI I don't find anything supernatural with love.
So if ya ask me if I believe in a supernatural force I have no problem admitting that I don't believe in supernatural forces.

And yet love is still my guide and not logic, critical thinking or the scientific method.


Originally Posted by TheEarthBeneathMe
Quote:
And I don't believe polytheism fits the role you're attempting to give it (as in, its not the Christian God, the Norse Gods, the Indian Gods, all the Pagan Gods living in harmony together..)
The way I view polytheism is that unlike monotheistic religions they don't try to convert the rest of the world to their way of thinking.
And if Iím not mistaken they donít believe that the earth will suddenly become a paradise when everyone else follows their brand of (polytheistic) religion.

The way I see atheism is that it is no different from any other monotheistic religion; most atheists, like their Christian counterpart, believe that anyone who doesn't believe what they believe can only be wrong and / or delusional.
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Old 05-10-2011, 06:24 PM
 
9,412 posts, read 11,745,419 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
I believe that God=love, which doesn't mean that I believe that God is some father figure who lives in the sky and is judging his creation.
Where on earth did you get that idea from?

There are very few texts that promote that ideal. God is love is simply humans wishful thinking because they can't abide the notion that god is this vengeful monster.
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Old 05-11-2011, 02:10 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,813,517 times
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Originally Posted by Djuna
Quote:
God is love is simply humans wishful thinking because they can't abide the notion that god is this vengeful monster.
To paraphrase the Hulk: "Humanity is the biggest monster there is!"
Not God.
Not nature.
Humanity.

Quote:
Where on earth did you get that idea from?
From personal experience.
I figgered out that love is the only thing that can make man (or to be more precise; man's ego) acknowledge that another person (another ego) is at the very least as important as his own ego.
I simply reached the conclusion that egocentric people simply are unable to love others, because that would require that they acknowledge that someone else is more important than themselves.

Quote:
There are very few texts that promote that ideal.
Like I've stated in post#41:
Quote:
Like most atheists I don't accept things because other people tell me to; I donít accept anything on blind faith.
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Old 05-12-2011, 07:33 AM
 
9,412 posts, read 11,745,419 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
From personal experience.
I figgered out that love is the only thing that can make man (or to be more precise; man's ego) acknowledge that another person (another ego) is at the very least as important as his own ego.
I simply reached the conclusion that egocentric people simply are unable to love others, because that would require that they acknowledge that someone else is more important than themselves.
I find it interesting that the very concept of god/gods come to us through ancient texts and oral history that are pretty clear on the nature of god, yet people continue to just make up their own concepts.

Fascinating example of how wishful thinking still dominates humans despite the contrary evidence.
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