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Old 05-09-2011, 11:36 AM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
28,537 posts, read 62,253,689 times
Reputation: 32267

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Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
I believe this comment applies to all of us as humans regardless of what we believe whether in religion, atheism, science, etc.
I will agree that it CAN apply to all of us.

Quote:
Some of us react differently depending of our personality make up, take care.

That's human nature to react and usually defensively to things we fear.

The distinction being made here is in the "truth" being asserted...
and the fearful reaction to that "truth".

When things (these truths) are clearly, objectively and factually supportable is quite a bit different from the others which aren't...
which makes them little more than Fairy Tales.

There IS a difference.
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Old 05-09-2011, 08:41 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,313 posts, read 3,882,975 times
Reputation: 2572
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
I will agree that it CAN apply to all of us.




That's human nature to react and usually defensively to things we fear.

The distinction being made here is in the "truth" being asserted...
and the fearful reaction to that "truth".

When things (these truths) are clearly, objectively and factually supportable is quite a bit different from the others which aren't...
which makes them little more than Fairy Tales.

There IS a difference.
Truth? Very interesting. Many views that were considered THE TRUTH in the past in religion and science are not falsehoods.

Fear? Many religious people are not fearful of anything. They truly believe and love their beliefs. So no need for you and others to be so concerned for them to know the truth as you see it. How many times you have made a decision on the best guess you can make because you do not have the whole truth, only a partial picture? I am sure you have done so many times. At times you were successful and at times you were not.

They make conclusions based on their philosophies and that is OK. Many of them are living very happy lives, not in fear as you claim.

To me you are showing to some degree that same type of fanatical attitude. You see it very important for them to show this scientific attitude in life and they see it very important for you to see the light. You are happy the way you see things in life? Great! So are they in their beliefs and that is also good.

So if I want to believe in Santa all my life and I am happy to live that way. Does it hurt you in any manner? I assure you it does not affect me you do not believe in Santa and I do not know the truth you so much cherish, take care.
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Old 05-09-2011, 08:42 PM
 
10,452 posts, read 10,638,760 times
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For the same reason other people are expected to respect your delusions. We all have them. You're deluded too. Just in other ways. And if you think you're not deluded some way...well then, that's delusional.
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Old 05-09-2011, 08:44 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,313 posts, read 3,882,975 times
Reputation: 2572
Quote:
Originally Posted by nimchimpsky View Post
For the same reason other people are expected to respect your delusions. We all have them. You're deluded too. Just in other ways. And if you think you're not deluded some way...well then, that's delusional.
So we all are a happy deluded family with in different ways I suppose. LOL
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Old 05-09-2011, 09:31 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,310 posts, read 10,350,640 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post

So if I want to believe in Santa all my life and I am happy to live that way. Does it hurt you in any manner?
Not unless you want to pass laws based on your belief in Santa or instruct our school children that your belief in Santa is "Truth".
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Old 05-09-2011, 10:17 PM
 
40,100 posts, read 26,767,323 times
Reputation: 6050
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
I believe this comment applies to all of us as humans regardless of what we beleive whether in religion, atheism, science, etc. Some of us react differently depending of our personality make up, take care.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
Agreed.
Most believers have their entire self identity (not just Christians btw) entwined in a series of unprovable assertions that they internalized. That must be tough. It's no surprise that they would feel threatened by things that challenge their world view.

Too bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
So do Republican's and Democrats, lefties and righties, atheist's and agnostics, Catholic's and Protestant's.

It's just human nature to take offense when those things we hold dear are attacked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
I think the point is that even when one IS attacking the idea and not the person, so many Christians see it as an attack on them and are only to quick to flash the 'poor persecuted me' card.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
The disrespect, to use your term, is not or should not be directed at the person. That would just be rude.

The disrespect is or should be limited to the ideas that the person is advocating:
ideas that aren't based in the known or the provable but rather ideas or whole set of often circuitous ideas
which their advocates still want to be respected for as if they were objectively known and proven.
That schism is the problem.
There IS a difference.
What you seem to ignore in your arrogant certainty that you are right . . . is that many of the things you disrespect and call deluded may be currently unprovable . . . but they are also NOT disprovable! You are defending a default from a position of ignorance ("we don't know") and acting as if you are doing so from science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
I will agree that it CAN apply to all of us.
That's human nature to react and usually defensively to things we fear.
The distinction being made here is in the "truth" being asserted...
and the fearful reaction to that "truth".
When things (these truths) are clearly, objectively and factually supportable is quite a bit different from the others which aren't...
which makes them little more than Fairy Tales.
There IS a difference.
I have no faith that you or any other atheist is sufficiently introspective to recognize that your default position originating in ignorance gives you clay feet in ANY logical argument that rests on the area covered by that ignorance (NOT disprovable). So your use of "truth" is disingenuous and deceitful when applied to your default as if it were science and has to be accepted in favor of the alternative.
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Old 05-10-2011, 02:51 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,284,580 times
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What is being missed in the above post is that this IS science, because that is how science works. Science is a process whereby the existence or truth of something is based only on the data you have, not on the data you have ignored or imagined. What is being missed therefore in the above post is that if a concept is entirely devoid of any supporting data then scientists are forced to proceed without that concept when creating Theory (though they are free to play with those concepts when creating hypothesis all they like.)

So if someone suggests homoepathy works, an intelligent entity exists called god, or that the user above actually has a phd…. They are doing so based on literally no data that has been shown to me. There is literally no reason to think any of those things true, and so the scientific approach is to proceed entirely without those concepts.

So no one needs to pretend that we are doing it “from science” as this is very much the scientific method.

What posters like NorealPhD deliberately ignore is the fact that atheist not only have no onus to prove a negative, that there is no god, but also they really have no desire to do so either. All the average atheist, and just about every secularist by definition… wants is that when we go into our halls of power, education and science in order to dictate policy… that we do so solely based on the data we actually have. The studies and statistics used should actually exist. The papers being cited should actually have been written. The entities being referred to whether human or divine should be shown to actually exist. Maybe god(s) exist and maybe it(they) do not. Until we have any reason to think so however they should be entirely left out of our discourse…

… otherwise the only intellectually honest approach open to us is to include EVERY non-disproven claim in our discourse which is not only unworkable in terms of time… there is just too many of them…. It is also unworkable in terms of setting policy, as anyone who does not like the policy about to be set need only make up something entirely new and unverifiable off the top of his head. We would start dictating policy based solely on fantasy and whoever has the better imagination.

Problem is the average theists is NOT intellectually honest and is happy to treat everyone elses unverifiable ideas exactly like I want them to… except their own ONE… based on nothing at all except their say so. They are intellectually honest about everyone elses random notions, until it comes to turning it on their own.
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Old 05-10-2011, 04:27 AM
 
705 posts, read 944,177 times
Reputation: 320
In other words they want to dish out the slop but they don't want to eat it.
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Old 05-10-2011, 07:25 AM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
28,537 posts, read 62,253,689 times
Reputation: 32267
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
So if I want to believe in Santa all my life and I am happy to live that way. Does it hurt you in any manner?
No it doesn't. Rafius addressed this well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius
Not unless you want to pass laws based on your belief in Santa or instruct our school children that your belief in Santa is "Truth".
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo
I assure you it does not affect me you do not believe in Santa and I do not know the truth you so much cherish, take care.
This opens another matter altogether: the "chicken little" effect.

I contend that you DO know the truths that I'm aware of ("cherish" in your sentence).
And I contend that you live among and use them every day of your life as well...
just as every other human on the planet does.

The schism between us, between theists and the rest, is the other dozen or hundred (or million?) things
which you assert to also exist...
and which you assert that you live among...
and which you assert that you use every day...
that no one else sees of feels.

To be clear: I don't object to you having these beliefs.
I'll protect to the death your right to have them and to teach them and to preach them too...
but where we part is with attempts to describe them as anything other than (let alone more than) your "belief".
(and of course all the laws and social constriction believers try to force on the rest of society)

Clearer?

Last edited by MrRational; 05-10-2011 at 07:38 AM..
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Old 05-10-2011, 07:53 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,313 posts, read 3,882,975 times
Reputation: 2572
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Not unless you want to pass laws based on your belief in Santa or instruct our school children that your belief in Santa is "Truth".
So now the real motive surfaces. What laws bother you? Take care.
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