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Old 07-01-2011, 10:31 AM
 
Location: around the 44th parallel
110 posts, read 85,796 times
Reputation: 78

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theophane View Post
The passive-aggressivism at play here is exquisite!
Actually I was being very forthright in my criticism. If you think I'm holding back, I can certainly adjust for your benefit.
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Old 07-01-2011, 11:37 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,313 posts, read 3,883,400 times
Reputation: 2572
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptBeavs View Post
Please figure out the quote function.
I do not have to figure out anything. You said he was being truthful, correct? It is a yes or a no. So still, bringing up the whether he was telling the truth has nothing to do with what I wrote, bottom line.

I said the OP was being truthful as a response to your seemingly whiny remark that the "OP was disrespectful." Absolute belief in a fictional God is, by definition, delusional. That's not disrespect, that's truth.
Whinny it was not. I did not address whether he should tell the truth or not. I simply addressed the method of delivery and pointed it out, no more no less. Whinny to me is if I was taking offense ot it and harping about it, I did not. Simply pointed out the way it was expressed, again, no more no less.

And by and large, even those moderate religious folk who believe and perpetuate the God myth also support the legislation of that myth.
Unless you have some data to back that up it is speculation on your part. I can make a different claim but it would be the same too.
I don't make a difference between the two, because to do so would be giving them too much credit.
I could interpret that statement that you have made up your mind and decided to stereotype. Giving credit would then mean you do not like to give recognition on something? If so, that to me then means you allow your ego to get the best of you, OK, I go it.
I operate in the real world. And frankly, the brainwashing of children with religious BS is abuse, and those who believe tend to abuse their children with this stuff.
I also operate in the real world. I also see how many people with those types of beliefs do have good, honorable, caring, clean, and respectful lives. There are many people out there in the world that live very simple lives believeing in miracles, God, etc. and are very happy and so are their children. Many do not looked abused or even deprived. That is the part of the real world you do not seem to simple accept that it exists and resppect. The abuse comment to me borders on some type of extreme attitudes held by groups that in essence are acting the very same way as the religious extremist they point the finger at.

I would not "respect" ones right to emotionally abuse a child or brainwash a child with stories of hell, should they not believe in a magic sky fairy.
Here is where we differ. To me you are also seem to be an extremist as others have that believe in religion. Abuse? Interesting word that you stretch it meaning. If a father teaches his children about God, the Bible, miracles, etc., in a way that allows them to think for themselves that is not abuse. There are many parents that do that. Abuse is if the child does not agree with the father and he stress him with threats, punishment, etc. if he does not believe in those things. There are parents that do that, I will not deny that and I do not agree with those methods of parenting. Brainwash? Also interesting. I can say you are brainwash also simply because you do not share the same line of logic I share. Brainwash is a subjective word that we all can use on others. You just did also. To me you are "preaching" your views in the same way as those extemist religious types. When I see religouse types that demean others as you and the OP do I also tell them the same I am telling you.
I don't know why anyone does respect that belief, anymore than we would respect someone who deprives their child of medical care for religious reasons.
I also respect that. Now, that does not mean I would not act on something like that. I as a retired Soldier understand that maybe the reason to go to war we may not agree but there is such things as commitment to a cause on both sides. The cause can be argued by many but many on both sides can respect each other despite the fact that while they are carrying their duty they are killing each other.
Again, maybe you can't, or you can but do not want, or do not have the skills to respect others regardless of what they believe, I can. Take care.
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Old 07-01-2011, 11:43 AM
 
Location: around the 44th parallel
110 posts, read 85,796 times
Reputation: 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
I also respect that. Now, that does not mean I would not act on something like that. I as a retired Soldier understand that maybe the reason to go to war we may not agree but there is such things as commitment to a cause on both sides. The cause can be argued by many but many on both sides can respect each other despite the fact that while they are carrying their duty they are killing each other.
Again, maybe you can't, or you can but do not want, or do not have the skills to respect others regardless of what they believe, I can. Take care.
Apparently you don't care if you're using the quote function properly. In that case, I'll give very short shrift to your post, and be trite in my response.

Yes, you're being whiny the instant you say that the OP was disrespectful. His whole point was WHY we are required to respect delusions, not the deluded.

Why do I make no difference between the moderately religious and those who legislate belief? Because the latter are incredibly prevalent, otherwise we wouldn't have gays fighting so hard to be able to legally married in 6 states. That's just for starters. And it proves that the religious among us predominantly demand piety from legislators.

I'm not preaching because I am not advocating a dogma. There is no dogma with atheism. There is respect for science, disagreement, and most of all, evidence. That's the opposite of preaching.

When parents tell a child "here, believe this ridiculous, impossible, gravity-defying story, fully, or you will burn in hell when you die" that's abuse. End of story. Children can take decades to overcome the belief that there is a possibility they will immolate in a lake of fire forever upon their death.

I am not brainwashed. I was raised in a religious household, and sought out the truth on my own. Quite the opposite from you, I'd wager. But that's just a guess. If you ever solve the quote function problem you're having, perhaps I'll read your response to that.

Again, you're unable to grasp the difference between "respecting the delusion" and "respecting humans." I will never respect religiosity, and especially not the type that demands we legislate it (which is the majority of religiosity, as our laws have proven).

I'm not sure what you being a soldier has to do with anything. Seems like you slipped that in there in an attempt to impress me or something. You failed
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Old 07-01-2011, 11:57 AM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
2,705 posts, read 2,600,392 times
Reputation: 842
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptBeavs View Post
Actually I was being very forthright in my criticism. If you think I'm holding back, I can certainly adjust for your benefit.
For my benefit? No, thanks. It's all futile anyways.
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Old 07-01-2011, 01:36 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,313 posts, read 3,883,400 times
Reputation: 2572
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptBeavs View Post
Apparently you don't care if you're using the quote function properly. In that case, I'll give very short shrift to your post, and be trite in my response.
Not that I do not care. You stated he was being truthful and I was not addressing that. If you want to equate truthfullness with a method of expressing it, well, I won't get into that. Any further will be going in circles.

Yes, you're being whiny the instant you say that the OP was disrespectful.
Not constant. I simply addressed it again because you replied to my message so as long as you are addressing it and is part of the exchange it will reapear. Not constant for the sake of it. Whiny? I am truthful. You call me addressing it whiny and I call the OP method disrespectful, simple. Another point where I suppse we agree to disagree. Should I call you pushy then? He is demeaning, I am whiny and you are pushy. All truthful. Happy?
His whole point was WHY we are required to respect delusions, not the deluded.
I got his whole point. I did not address his point whether I agree or disagree. You keep diverting my point as if I was disputing the point he is bringing. How clearer can I write it?
If you say the sky is brown, is there a difference if I tell you "You stupid, look more closely!" or "No, look, here is a chart and the color chart shows blue and brown. Compare them with the sky and you will see it is not brown, it is blue". If yo do not see a difference of approach then forget it. I give up.

Why do I make no difference between the moderately religious and those who legislate belief? Because the latter are incredibly prevalent, otherwise we wouldn't have gays fighting so hard to be able to legally married in 6 states.
Again, often the most boisterous minorities are the ones that tend to be the voice most heard. Your logic is based on a fallacy. Do all voters go to the voting poles in every state? No. Here in my hometown very few people voted for giving gays the same rights for government benefits. What about the rest of the people? What do they believe? Some simply may be lazy to go and vote, others may not care to vote, others may not care either way. How many of the voters in the cities are atheist, theists? Of those on both groups how many actually go and vote? You did not prove your logic right. Show me the numbers by atheists, theists, and break each of them by their views on gays and then I may go along with if they prove what to me looks like flawed logic.
That's just for starters. And it proves that the religious among us predominantly demand piety from legislators.
See above again, it proves nothing.

I'm not preaching because I am not advocating a dogma. There is no dogma with atheism. There is respect for science, disagreement, and most of all, evidence. That's the opposite of preaching.
Preaching
I read in a dictionary the word preach and it does not give the definition you give it i.e. advocating a dogma. Maybe you have one that does. If so, give me the references so I can see it. For now your definition is flawed. At this point I have a reference www.dictionary.com so I have a more solid response than yours. One of the defintions is "advocate". Are you advocating your views and the opposition theirs? Yes so both are preaching or advocating. Another related word is "outreach". You both outreach. Granted preaching may have a religious overtone but it is not exclusive. Preaching can be used for other areas.

When parents tell a child "here, believe this ridiculous, impossible, gravity-defying story, fully, or you will burn in hell when you die" that's abuse. End of story. Children can take decades to overcome the belief that there is a possibility they will immolate in a lake of fire forever upon their death.
You are being exaggerating your point and give children less credit. How many of us believed in Santa as children. I do not know if you did, I did. I am not traumatized and neither millions others. Even adults to this day may not believe in Santa anymore but enjoy the spirit of the season and may remember the great family times they had with children under such myth. The same can happen with millions of others that believe in God, the Bible, etc. You talk in such exaggerated terms as if children are lining up counseling offices due to depression because they were told about Jesus, hell, etc. Many do outgrow that and go on with their lives. Many, even some atheists I have talked with, even admit that even though they may not agree with those teaching their parents gave them they are happy those beliefs instilled in them some type of moral compass.

I am not brainwashed. I was raised in a religious household, and sought out the truth on my own.
Good for you. Were you traumatized by that? I venture to guess you were not. OK, good for you. Many others are happy still believeing and other went the route you took. Good for all of you.
Quite the opposite from you, I'd wager. But that's just a guess.
I have decided that I believe in the existence of God. However, I am not one to believe Jesus is his son or that the Bible is his word. It does not matter to me either way. I just simple believe that. Often in life we believe things based on hints. Somethines we end up right and sometimes we end up wrong. OK, that is part of life. It is not my cruzade to prove it either way or to show others how wrong they are. Jefferson said it he did not care whether someone believe there is one or twenty gods. It did not affect his pocket and I share that view.
If you ever solve the quote function problem you're having, perhaps I'll read your response to that.
I am not here to solve anything. If you think I missed what "quote function" then we differ on how to approach situations like this one. In my case if I see someone is ignorant of something it is not below me to explain to him something, not being condescending about it.

Again, you're unable to grasp the difference between "respecting the delusion" and "respecting humans." I will never respect religiosity, and especially not the type that demands we legislate it (which is the majority of religiosity, as our laws have proven).
I do grasp such thing. I even agree with what you just said. Again, YOU seem not to see the difference between a method of approach and addressing a point.
I'm not sure what you being a soldier has to do with anything. Seems like you slipped that in there in an attempt to impress me or something. You failed
An assumption on your part if that is what you thought. I showed it as what to me seemed a parallel example on people respecting others views despite their differences. You failed to get that point. I have not need to impress you. I do not know you, we are not friends, you do not sign my check for me to consider that. Ingratiating to you brings me no gain in any form. In all fairness maybe I failed to show what I think the paralles may exist. Forget it then. Take care.
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Old 07-12-2011, 04:44 PM
 
12,886 posts, read 15,451,091 times
Reputation: 14854
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinking-man View Post
I don't understand why people (religious and not so religious folks) insist on respecting the point of views of others.....regardless of how rediculous and stupid their claims are!

Does anyone else get frustrated by this fact?

If you don't want your ideas to be questioned and rediculed (in the case of religion and a god), then either 'smart up' and don't come up with fairytales as your truths and your reality, or keep it to yourself, and don't go around saying "the good lord this....and the good lord that..."

Ticks me off i tell ya!
I don't respect what I consider ridiculous or stupid views by anyone...but I do respect their right to have them......Why get all heated up about it....it's not worth the energy...just close your ears and walk on by.
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Old 07-12-2011, 05:10 PM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
2,705 posts, read 2,600,392 times
Reputation: 842
Quote:
Originally Posted by purehuman View Post
I don't respect what I consider ridiculous or stupid views by anyone...but I do respect their right to have them......Why get all heated up about it....it's not worth the energy...just close your ears and walk on by.
I feel the same way, although what I consider ridiculous or stupid might not be that way at all. I'll concede that I don't know everything.
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Old 07-13-2011, 12:12 AM
 
Location: Metromess
11,798 posts, read 21,994,349 times
Reputation: 5074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theophane View Post
I feel the same way, although what I consider ridiculous or stupid might not be that way at all. I'll concede that I don't know everything.
I know we don't see eye to eye, but that is a very good attitude.
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Old 07-13-2011, 03:39 PM
 
3,413 posts, read 6,455,840 times
Reputation: 1425
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperFreak View Post
If only fundamentalist Christians adopted this same attitude. They don't. They demand that the pulpit include the state legislature. That's when "why get all heated up about it?" elicits an answer: Because they're thrusting bigoted lies upon the non-believing population in the form of law.
It's not only fundamentalist Christians, it's environmentalist, vegetarians, pagans, pantheist, animist, collectivist, atheist and other "religious" groups who refuse to acknowledge that they are a religion with a belief system and an agenda that they would like to see the whole world embrace. And everyone of them is prepared to use force via the government to push their agenda through as "necessary".
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Old 07-13-2011, 05:57 PM
 
Location: Ohio
13,900 posts, read 10,796,204 times
Reputation: 7242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinking-man View Post
I don't understand why people (religious and not so religious folks) insist on respecting the point of views of others.....regardless of how rediculous and stupid their claims are!

Does anyone else get frustrated by this fact?

If you don't want your ideas to be questioned and rediculed (in the case of religion and a god), then either 'smart up' and don't come up with fairytales as your truths and your reality, or keep it to yourself, and don't go around saying "the good lord this....and the good lord that..."

Ticks me off i tell ya!
How about because its the proper thing to do? Nobody said you couldn't question them on their views but very seldom does somone question the world view of another and maintain a level of respectwhile doing it. If this forum has proven one thing to me its that.
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