U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Atheism and Agnosticism
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 08-12-2011, 02:49 PM
 
Location: Englewood, FL
1,458 posts, read 1,491,257 times
Reputation: 950

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tantalust View Post
This is a lie, you've never heard that argument.

You can read in your "Darwin's Fairy Tales" -- I'm sure they have pictures as well.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-12-2011, 02:51 PM
 
Location: Englewood, FL
1,458 posts, read 1,491,257 times
Reputation: 950
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Corleone View Post
Indeed, it's a stretch, as in it stretched over millions and millions of years of evolution.

Inside of about 20 years, we turned a poodle and a labrador into a labradoodle.

Multiply that by a 10 million, and consider the implications for animals evolving all kinds of traits to adapt to the environment. It's not hard to imagine that way.
Well come on, let's breed man with a fish! With your logic, it should be possible any day now.

By the way, labradoodles are way cute -- and hypoallergenic as well. Bonus!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-12-2011, 02:52 PM
 
Location: Englewood, FL
1,458 posts, read 1,491,257 times
Reputation: 950
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Corleone View Post
Why do you ask questions with a false premise?

Prove me wrong, Vito.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-12-2011, 02:53 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
1,530 posts, read 2,602,959 times
Reputation: 907
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiggy View Post
Why after all these years has NO ONE come out and said "Evolution is Fact?" No one.
CA201: Only a theory

Quote:
Claim CA201:

Evolution is only a theory. It is not a fact.
Source:

State of Oklahoma. 2003. House Bill HB1504: Schools; requiring all textbooks to have an evolution disclaimer; codification; effective date; emergency. http://www2.lsb.state.ok.us/2003-04hb/hb1504_int.rtf (broken link)
Response:

The word theory, in the context of science, does not imply uncertainty. It means "a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena" (Barnhart 1948). In the case of the theory of evolution, the following are some of the phenomena involved. All are facts:
Life appeared on earth more than two billion years ago;
Life forms have changed and diversified over life's history;
Species are related via common descent from one or a few common ancestors;
Natural selection is a significant factor affecting how species change.
Many other facts are explained by the theory of evolution as well.

The theory of evolution has proved itself in practice. It has useful applications in epidemiology, pest control, drug discovery, and other areas (Bull and Wichman 2001; Eisen and Wu 2002; Searls 2003).

Besides the theory, there is the fact of evolution, the observation that life has changed greatly over time. The fact of evolution was recognized even before Darwin's theory. The theory of evolution explains the fact.

If "only a theory" were a real objection, creationists would also be issuing disclaimers complaining about the theory of gravity, atomic theory, the germ theory of disease, and the theory of limits (on which calculus is based). The theory of evolution is no less valid than any of these. Even the theory of gravity still receives serious challenges (Milgrom 2002). Yet the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is still a fact.

Creationism is neither theory nor fact; it is, at best, only an opinion. Since it explains nothing, it is scientifically useless.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-12-2011, 04:05 PM
 
Location: NW NJ & SE Oahu
4,552 posts, read 5,397,259 times
Reputation: 4137
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiggy View Post
.
atheist's implausible arguments -- like how a fish walked out some body of water, decided that he was going to, just for the heck of it, evolve into a human being.

-This is a lie, you've never heard that argument.

-You can read in your "Darwin's Fairy Tales" -- I'm sure they have pictures as well.

Jesus won't like you if you're a liar.

Last edited by Tantalust; 08-12-2011 at 04:59 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-12-2011, 05:53 PM
 
Location: NW NJ & SE Oahu
4,552 posts, read 5,397,259 times
Reputation: 4137
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiggy View Post
Why after all these years has NO ONE come out and said "Evolution is Fact?" No one.
Carl Sagan explained exactly that:


Evolution is a fact, not a theory ~Carl Sagan (Part 1 of 2) - YouTube
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-12-2011, 06:37 PM
 
16,083 posts, read 17,876,536 times
Reputation: 15867
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiggy View Post
Why after all these years has NO ONE come out and said "Evolution is Fact?" No one.
Ah, but they have. Evolution is a fact, the theory has to do with the *how* not the fact that it happens.

Stephen Jay Gould, "Evolution as Fact and Theory" 1994

Quote:
Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's, but apples did not suspend themselves in mid-air, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from apelike ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other, yet to be discovered.

Moreover, "fact" does not mean "absolute certainty." The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

Evolutionists have been clear about this distinction between fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory—natural selection—to explain the mechanism of evolution. He wrote in The Descent of Man: "I had two distinct objects in view; firstly, to show that species had not been separately created, and secondly, that natural selection had been the chief agent of change. . . . Hence if I have erred in . . . having exaggerated its [natural selection's] power . . . I have at least, as I hope, done good service in aiding to overthrow the dogma of separate creations."

Thus Darwin acknowledged the provisional nature of natural selection while affirming the fact of evolution. The fruitful theoretical debate that Darwin initiated has never ceased. From the 1940s through the 1960s, Darwin's own theory of natural selection did achieve a temporary hegemony that it never enjoyed in his lifetime. But renewed debate characterizes our decade, and, while no biologist questions the importance of natural selection, many doubt its ubiquity. In particular, many evolutionists argue that substantial amounts of genetic change may not be subject to natural selection and may spread through the populations at random. Others are challenging Darwin's linking of natural selection with gradual, imperceptible change through all intermediary degrees; they are arguing that most evolutionary events may occur far more rapidly than Darwin envisioned.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-13-2011, 12:18 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,310 posts, read 10,332,182 times
Reputation: 2610
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiggy View Post
In my post, I was referring to the atheist's implausible arguments -- like how a fish walked out some body of water, decided that he was going to, just for the heck of it, evolve into a human being. Not a dog, not a cockroach, but a man. Wait, stop the presses! That's not what Darwin meant -- he meant that apes evolved into man -- wait, no, it was definitely fish. Yeah, yeah, that's the ticket. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
Do we really need any more evidence than the above folks?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-13-2011, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Englewood, FL
1,458 posts, read 1,491,257 times
Reputation: 950
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Do we really need any more evidence than the above folks?

There is no empirical proof that evolution is fact. Carl Sagan didn't say it, and if he did, he'd too have to prove it. It's a belief system. An hypothesis. At the very best, a guess. It's a religion. Believe in it if you must. But it's cold comfort when you go through life and what life throws at you. Believe in your theories when a son or daughter dies, or when you're kicked out of your house, or you're diagnosed with stage four cancer. The tenets of Darwinism won't sustain your through the darkest points in your life. Human reason won't get you through a nasty divorce. Unfortunately, that's YOUR delusion.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-13-2011, 12:58 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
1,530 posts, read 2,602,959 times
Reputation: 907
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiggy View Post
There is no empirical proof that evolution is fact. Carl Sagan didn't say it, and if he did, he'd too have to prove it. It's a belief system. An hypothesis. At the very best, a guess. It's a religion. Believe in it if you must. But it's cold comfort when you go through life and what life throws at you. Believe in your theories when a son or daughter dies, or when you're kicked out of your house, or you're diagnosed with stage four cancer. The tenets of Darwinism won't sustain your through the darkest points in your life. Human reason won't get you through a nasty divorce. Unfortunately, that's YOUR delusion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenshi View Post
CA201: Only a theory

Quote:
Claim CA201:

Evolution is only a theory. It is not a fact.
Source:

State of Oklahoma. 2003. House Bill HB1504: Schools; requiring all textbooks to have an evolution disclaimer; codification; effective date; emergency. http://www2.lsb.state.ok.us/2003-04hb/hb1504_int.rtf (broken link)
Response:

The word theory, in the context of science, does not imply uncertainty. It means "a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena" (Barnhart 1948). In the case of the theory of evolution, the following are some of the phenomena involved. All are facts:
Life appeared on earth more than two billion years ago;
Life forms have changed and diversified over life's history;
Species are related via common descent from one or a few common ancestors;
Natural selection is a significant factor affecting how species change.
Many other facts are explained by the theory of evolution as well.

The theory of evolution has proved itself in practice. It has useful applications in epidemiology, pest control, drug discovery, and other areas (Bull and Wichman 2001; Eisen and Wu 2002; Searls 2003).

Besides the theory, there is the fact of evolution, the observation that life has changed greatly over time. The fact of evolution was recognized even before Darwin's theory. The theory of evolution explains the fact.

If "only a theory" were a real objection, creationists would also be issuing disclaimers complaining about the theory of gravity, atomic theory, the germ theory of disease, and the theory of limits (on which calculus is based). The theory of evolution is no less valid than any of these. Even the theory of gravity still receives serious challenges (Milgrom 2002). Yet the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is still a fact.

Creationism is neither theory nor fact; it is, at best, only an opinion. Since it explains nothing, it is scientifically useless.
.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Atheism and Agnosticism
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top