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Old 05-05-2011, 07:25 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,288,132 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
The same could be said about, and done to, the evolutionist's. They can no more prove God doesn't exist than the creationist's can prove He does, which makes both positions objects of ridicule by your standard.
Huh? The existence of god has nothing to do with evolutionary biology. Why should an evolutionary biologist be asked for proof that god does not exist therefore? You have suddenly stopped making any sense at all now. Your statement makes as much sense as going into a sex shop and complaining they do not sell replacement tyres for your car. They do not sell them, because it is not a tyre shop.

However it is worth pointing out that saying "there is no evidence that god does NOT exist" is usual creationist canard. Science is not in the business of proving negatives. There is no onus on people to prove something does not exist, if that something appears to have been entirely made up. Science is in the business of falsifying evidence. Since there IS no evidence being offered there is such an entity, science has no onus to prove otherwise. There is no evidence that millions of things we have dreamed up do not exist. Do you go around believing in them all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
Ridicule and mocking only serves to harden positions
No it does not "only" do that. It does many things. If a position is ludicrous then the act of using mockery highlights WHY it is ludicrous to other people too, which sometimes is very important.

Take homeopathy for example. There is no evidence being offered that it is effective at all. It is a ludicrous postulation from start to finish. Mockery highlights to people who do not know any better just how ludicrous it is.

Pointing out the stupidity of thinking there is health benefits from diluting something... and diluting it so much that you would need a sphere of water the size of the solar system in order to be 100% sure there is 1 single atom of the substance left.... is so ludicrous that the only form of debate warranted on the subject IS persistent mockery and derision. No other conversation is possible. You think we should calmly and politely discuss the evidence or something? Simply not possible because the concept HAS no supporting evidence. There is, quite literally, nothing at all in the way of evidence there to discuss. People just choose to believe it anyway.

Respect is earned and ideas like homeopathy have earned zero, and so I will show it zero. There is literally no onus on me to do otherwise, and contrary to your assumption this has nothing to do with me wanting to feel good about myself. It is solely, and simply, the right approach to homeopathy in my eyes.
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Old 05-05-2011, 07:38 AM
 
Location: Texas
14,078 posts, read 17,683,596 times
Reputation: 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Huh? The existence of god has nothing to do with evolutionary biology. Why should an evolutionary biologist be asked for proof that god does not exist therefore? You have suddenly stopped making any sense at all now. Your statement makes as much sense as going into a sex shop and complaining they do not sell replacement tyres for your car. They do not sell them, because it is not a tyre shop.

However it is worth pointing out that saying "there is no evidence that god does NOT exist" is usual creationist canard. Science is not in the business of proving negatives. There is no onus on people to prove something does not exist, if that something appears to have been entirely made up. Science is in the business of falsifying evidence. Since there IS no evidence being offered there is such an entity, science has no onus to prove otherwise. There is no evidence that millions of things we have dreamed up do not exist. Do you go around believing in them all?
You're the one who brought it up, so I was merely pointing out that from the persective of a creationist, the position held by an evolutionist is equally fodder for ridicule, if someone wanted to do that.

Like that guy looking for a tire in a sex shop, don't be surprised if ridiculing a creationist results in being ridiculed back.




Quote:
No it does not "only" do that. It does many things. If a position is ludicrous then the act of using mockery highlights WHY it is ludicrous to other people too, which sometimes is very important.

Take homeopathy for example. There is no evidence being offered that it is effective at all. It is a ludicrous postulation from start to finish. Mockery highlights to people who do not know any better just how ludicrous it is.

Pointing out the stupidity of thinking there is health benefits from diluting something... and diluting it so much that you would need a sphere of water the size of the solar system in order to be 100% sure there is 1 single atom of the substance left.... is so ludicrous that the only form of debate warranted on the subject IS persistent mockery and derision. No other conversation is possible. You think we should calmly and politely discuss the evidence or something? Simply not possible because the concept HAS no supporting evidence. There is, quite literally, nothing at all in the way of evidence there to discuss. People just choose to believe it anyway.

Respect is earned and ideas like homeopathy have earned zero, and so I will show it zero. There is literally no onus on me to do otherwise, and contrary to your assumption this has nothing to do with me wanting to feel good about myself. It is solely, and simply, the right approach to homeopathy in my eyes.

Then it's your choice to stoop to ridiculing ideas and people. You may build all the fanciful "reasons" to justify it that you like, but that still won't make it right in anyones eyes but your own and others who are similarly afflicted with such an overweening impression of themselves and their "superior" intelligence.
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Old 05-05-2011, 07:52 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,288,132 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
You're the one who brought it up
I brought up the debate between creationism and evolutionary biology. This has little to do with god given that the entire approach of creationism is to attack evolution. They provide no evidence for their own claims, or their own gods, AT ALL. They instead take the approach of pretending that if evolution is wrong... anything they say is right by default and hence all they do is try to prove evolution wrong.

They HAVE no position or evidence for their own claims is my point, so conversation with them is impossible on that level. Instead we have only one option open to us.... to laugh at their ideas and ridicule them. The idea... for example... that a minimum of 2 of every creature on the planet could be collected.... then made fit, let alone live peacefully and successfully... in the confines of one single boat built by a 600+ year old man.... all to deal with a vengeful imaginary friends torential down pour... is a joke. Plain and simply a joke.

I do not know about you but I laugh at jokes. That is a joke. So I will laugh at it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
don't be surprised if ridiculing a creationist results in being ridiculed back.
They try it. Sometimes. Firstly it does not bother me. I have a thicker skin than some people on here. Secondly it tends to fail, as hard facts generally do not provide them with as much fodder for comedy as their fantasys do such as the
Noah Ark one I mentioned above can for so many comedians. Follow the link and see. Funny stuff. Not to mention what he does with the Adam and Eve story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
Then it's your choice to stoop to ridiculing ideas and people.
Stoop is your word not mine. Comedy done well is hard. I would use "rise to" rather than "stoop to". I am talking about well done mockery and ridicule here. I am not talking about simple base insults that anyone is capable of and we see all too often on this website. People are too keen when they have nothing to say, to turn to school yard rhetoric, derision and insult. This is not the kind of thing I am referring to here. I mean the skill... and it is a skill, or an art.... of taking a ludicrous proposition and extracting the comedy from it.

However as I said it is not a "choice". People with ridiculous ideas give you no evidence to discuss. When discussion is not possible what other options have we but ridicule conversation.

Because I will tell you right now that the entire history of our species attests to one undeniable fact about us.... when conversation stops..... violence follows. Plain and simple. Violence is the result of a total break down in communication. Sometimes ridicule is the only option left under the category of conversation. I would rather stick with it then go to the next category.
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Old 05-05-2011, 08:44 AM
 
Location: Emerald Coast, FL
5,322 posts, read 8,375,980 times
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I may not respect someone's ideas or beliefs. I may not even respect the person holding them. But I WILL treat the person with respect unless they do not treat me respectfully. That is the basis of a civil society and at least leaves the door open for debate.
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Old 05-05-2011, 09:13 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,288,132 times
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Indeed TaoistDude the worst impression I get from this thread is people think that mocking or disrespecting an idea is the same as mocking or disrespecting the person who holds it. The two can be very different, and you can do so with no loss of respect for the person in question.

Take for example Isaac Newton. He is one of the best minds our history has ever produced. His contributions to science know few equals. Clearly I have heaps of respect for him.

I respect him enough however to know that if I could meet him I would tear apart some of the more ludicrous notions he had and let him know just how stupid and comical they were. He had some very barmy ideas about some things indeed and I would not hesitate to rip them apart in front of him.

This notion that being wrong, or showing that someone is wrong, is some kind of slight or attack on their character is a notion our species would do well to divest itself of. Finding out where you are wrong is actually a wonderful thing, and if someone else helps you to that realization they have given you a wonderful gift.

I mock ludicrous ideas not to big up myself or to feel superior. I do it because I respect the person I am doing it to enough to give them the gift of leading them to the realization of where they are wrong.
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Old 05-05-2011, 09:15 AM
 
3,682 posts, read 4,944,400 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Indeed TaoistDude the worst impression I get from this thread is people think that mocking or disrespecting an idea is the same as mocking or disrespecting the person who holds it. The two can be very different, and you can do so with no loss of respect for the person in question.

Take for example Isaac Newton. He is one of the best minds our history has ever produced. His contributions to science know few equals. Clearly I have heaps of respect for him.

I respect him enough however to know that if I could meet him I would tear apart some of the more ludicrous notions he had and let him know just how stupid and comical they were. He had some very barmy ideas about some things indeed and I would not hesitate to rip them apart in front of him.

This notion that being wrong, or showing that someone is wrong, is some kind of slight or attack on their character is a notion our species would do well to divest itself of. Finding out where you are wrong is actually a wonderful thing, and if someone else helps you to that realization they have given you a wonderful gift.

I mock ludicrous ideas not to big up myself or to feel superior. I do it because I respect the person I am doing it to enough to give them the gift of leading them to the realization of where they are wrong.
I understand exactly what you mean and couldn't agree more!
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Old 05-05-2011, 09:46 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,310 posts, read 10,358,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
Axeman, YOUR beliefs are sancrosanct--and should never be treated with mockery or disrespect.
So let's say that Axe believed that child pornography was cool. Should we treat that belief as sacrosanct?
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Old 05-05-2011, 01:26 PM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,991,559 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KCfromNC View Post
Is is really "intrusion" to respond when a believer injects their sacred beliefs into an unrelated conversation, though? Or more significantly, if political leaders use their interpretation of their religious belief to form policy?
I'd need to know more, but probably not. I think people have a right to get their political ideas from religion or philosophy or coin-flipping, but sure others can try to stop that. And if religious people are intruding on a conversation in an obnoxious way sure that can be dealt with in a firm manner. (I'm not sure being mean is just even then, but I can see how it'd be enjoyable)

What I meant by "intrusion" is the kind of atheists, rare though they are, who do want to to intrude into the internal affairs of a religion or religious person even if they're not doing anything illegal. Like people aiming to "de-convert" others or demand that all religions accept homosexual sex or feminism. And even if that's rare it certainly exists.
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Old 05-05-2011, 01:47 PM
 
Location: Texas
1,303 posts, read 1,856,333 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
So you think you should have the right to mock anothers beliefs? I wonder how that shoe would fit on your foot?

But, you go right on and do that. I think I'll pass.
I believe a man named Atlas is holding the earth in its place, and that the laws of gravity are complete nonsense. I guess nobody has the right to mock or disrespect my beliefs, right?

If anybody does such a thing, I'll just toss around words such as "bigot" and "hate" as much as I see fit, although those words get used so casually around here at times, I think they may have lost much of their meaning.

Also, if you try to show me evidence that contradicts my beliefs, I'm just gonna stick my head in the sand and deny it. It doesn't matter what it is, I'll simply deny it, all of it, and keep on believing what I do. They're my beliefs and they deserve respect.....from everybody!

Still think my beliefs deserve respect?

Well, I'd also like to inform you that my beliefs are the truth, and that your beliefs, no matter what they may be, are wrong. My beliefs are good for everyone, whether they like it or not. As a matter of fact, if you don't get with the program and believe what I do, you could be looking at some trouble in the afterlife.

Still think my beliefs deserve respect?

Well, I'd also like to inform you that, deep down inside, you really know my beliefs are correct. Why you insist on denying the truth, I don't know. Well, actually, I do know. You're probably one of them types that just wants to do what he wants to do, am I right? That's it, isn't it? I'm pretty sure I know you better than you know yourself, so that must be it. You need to give up your false beliefs (no doubt caused by a wicked heart) and repent. It's as simple has that.

Still think my...............

OK, enough is enough

One more thing. I have the right to annoy you with my beliefs as much as I see fit, and, if at any time, I invoke a negative emotional reaction from you, well, that just validates my beliefs even further. Too much truth does that to a person.

One last thing (for real this time).

All of this could easily be avoided if people simply minded their own business.
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Old 05-05-2011, 02:16 PM
 
16,300 posts, read 24,984,399 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
I find myself saying nothing a lot.
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