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Old 05-25-2011, 02:18 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,874,793 times
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
Quote:
Atheism TRYING to find a philosophy where there are no gods is actually not logical since it if open to preferential dismissal of any evidence FOR gods, which is the thing we accuse Theists of - beginning with the conclusion and searching around for evidence to support it.
Yes well I was never concerned with proving or disproving gods.
I guess I don't care either way.

Originally Posted by Djuna
Quote:
Most atheists I know are pretty happy people who love their family and find meaning in many more things than most religious people.
I was speaking of those who, for whatever reason, do not feel connected or who do not have a loving family.

I mean the student shootings are considered to be a sign of the modern times, right? I'm sure that those who are guilty of this crime felt very isolated.
I blame technology and the ever growing individualism of society.
I also realize that atheism would've been impossible without the individualisation process ever having happened in society.

For the record I'm not saying that atheism eventually leads to nihilism but that if atheism is just a response to religion (or the belief/assumption that religion is nothing but emotion),
overcompensating with logic there is a danger that it could lead to nihilism.
And I prefer a balance between emotion & logic anywayz.
Yet love still is my guide.
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Old 05-25-2011, 06:27 AM
 
Location: Log "cabin" west of Bangor
5,700 posts, read 6,856,014 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA I don't believe that atheism will necessarily lead to nihilism either, but the point I'm trying to make is that if you look at atheism objectively (read: try to not bring emotion into the equation which eventually means to not feeling an emotional connection to others) there is a 50 / 50 chance a person will slide into nihilism, right?

As far as I understand the various atheists here prefer rationality over emotion which somehow reminds me of intelligent autists. These people are (highly) intelligent & rational but because of their autism unable to connect with their own emotions and thus unable to connect with others.
So I fear that the combination of only trying to be rational and not feeling connected with others will set a person on the path of nihilism.

In short: my concern with atheism is not trying to find a philosophy were gods don't play a role anymore, but the part were one only tries to be rational by surpressing their emotions.
OK, I just took a 'crash course' in 'Nihilism'. I had never read Nietzsche or any similar, and though I have seen the term occasionally, I never bothered to dig into it.

The definitions of Nihilism seem to range from relatively benign to downright anti-social and destructive.

Some of the characteristics seem to fit my thoughts. Having never really studied this sort of thing before, I am happy to see that my own rationalizations are similar to those of notable figures.

I, for one, do not see atheism/intelligence/rationality as negating emotion. One can be rational while retaining emotion. Why should one suppress emotion in order to be 'rational'? One is a method of thought, the other is 'feeling'. I see no need to stop 'feeling' in order to think.

P.S.: What definition of 'Nihilism' are you considering here?
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Old 05-25-2011, 06:47 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,874,793 times
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Originally Posted by Zymer
Quote:
P.S.: What definition of 'Nihilism' are you considering here?
I see nihilism as the loss of connection to the world around you.
The realisation that your existence actually doesn't matter in the long run can be an overwhelming and traumatic experience for the individual.

However, I do agree with Nietzsche that the overcoming of nihilism is a very important step in the journey of discovering who you actually are (or want to be).
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Old 05-25-2011, 12:17 PM
 
Location: Metromess
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I accepted the fact that my existence doesn't matter in the long run a long time ago. However, that is no reason to turn to nihilism.
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Old 05-25-2011, 07:15 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
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Originally Posted by catman
Quote:
I accepted the fact that my existence doesn't matter in the long run a long time ago. However, that is no reason to turn to nihilism.
Just realising that your life is meaningless is not the important part, what is important is already feeling disconnected from others while you come to this realisation.
My point is that knowledge without an emotional impact has no impact at all.
So if you already feel disconnected from other people (have no emotional connection to people you love or don't feel loved by others) and come to the realisation that your existence doesn't matter you might stop to love yourself. Once you have stopped with loving yourself (read: stopped caring about yourself) you'll eventually stop caring about everything (including other people).
And the moment you've stopped caring life has lost all meaning and becomes merely 'theoretical' (read: just knowledge with no emotional impact).
At this stage nihilism becomes a 'reasonable' option.
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Old 05-25-2011, 09:13 PM
 
2,726 posts, read 4,548,840 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Being a hairless bipedal ape, I have the annoying psychological tendency to catagorize and put neat little labels on everything, so sorry ahead of time.

In another thread I suggested "spirituality" could be ever so neatly divided into four catagories of progressing reality awareness:

1. True barbarism: living day to day virtually as an animal for selfish gain.

2. Religious: following/buying into an institution.

3. Agnosticsim/atheism: the realization that institutions are wrong and subsequently rejecting them in a honest search for truth.

4. True enlightenment: a theoretical higher perspective with a true understanding of the universe, it's interconnectedness and our place in it.

Please dissect this and tell my why it would/wouldn't be true.

Is there anything beyond the realizations of atheism/agnosticism? Is that the end of the progression, or just a step along the way to something bigger and more complete?
I think there is one realization beyond agnosticism/atheism the way you defined it: death. I understand its purpose now.
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Old 05-25-2011, 11:54 PM
 
Location: Metromess
11,798 posts, read 22,134,213 times
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Tricky D: You needn't psychoanalyze me. You took what I said to an extreme. Humans are as a rule simply so self-important. Neither myself nor any of my acquaintances will matter a whit a hundred years from now. We will be long forgotten. It doesn't mean that I or any of them lack self-esteem. It is simply the way it is. But I do not thik nihilism is a 'reasonable option' because of this, or because of any other reason I can think of.
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Old 05-26-2011, 01:04 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
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Originally Posted by catman
Quote:
Tricky D: You needn't psychoanalyze me.
What makes you think I'd psychoanalysed you?

I've psychoanalysed myself.
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Old 05-30-2011, 11:30 PM
 
Location: Metromess
11,798 posts, read 22,134,213 times
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The reason I felt that you were psychoanalyzing me is because of the following:
1. You concluded that I feel disconnected from other people.
2. And that I have no emotional connections to others and are not loved by them, and that I might stop loving myself, leading to my not caring about anyone else and to nihilism.

None of that is true, and I didn't say it was. All I said that my existence won't matter in the long run, just like 99.999...% of the rest of us. The rest was all fabricated by you. I'm not angry; I simply don't understand how you could jump to so many conclusions from my simple statement.
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Old 05-31-2011, 01:55 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,874,793 times
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Originally Posted by catman
Quote:
The reason I felt that you were psychoanalyzing me is because of the following:
1. You concluded that I feel disconnected from other people.
2. And that I have no emotional connections to others and are not loved by them, and that I might stop loving myself, leading to my not caring about anyone else and to nihilism.
(...)
All I said that my existence won't matter in the long run, just like 99.999...% of the rest of us. The rest was all fabricated by you. I'm not angry; I simply don't understand how you could jump to so many conclusions from my simple statement.
Again, when it comes to nihilism regarding atheism (or vice versa) I've always been speaking of people who also, for whatever reason, already feel disconnected and not those who have loved ones or a loving family.

I'm not concerned with nihilism or atheism, but with people who already feel disconnected and then read up on nihilism and atheism, because they only focus on logic and not emotion it will not make the individual feel more (emotionally) connected to others when they already don't.
Heck, when you already feel disconnected reading up on nihilism, and to some degree atheism, will generally only increase the feeling of disconnection / isolation.
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