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Old 05-30-2011, 02:05 PM
 
6,760 posts, read 10,431,669 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeroman View Post
Well I figure if great scientists have demonstrated through experiments and mathematics that matter and energy can not be created or destroyed then I believe that matter and or energy has always existed.

No beginning and no end. And no gods necessary.

This would be similar to the belief that god has simply always existed. It takes faith to believe in a god or gods as it is believing in something not seen, only felt. It takes faith, or at least assumption to believe matter and energy has always existed.

What has made me interested in seeing a lot more views and ideas lately is my own personal views have been something I have examining. I grew up in a religous home and a fairly religous small town in Mississippi (trust me though, you much more likely to get teased and ridiculed for being a "holy roller" or a bible thumper than you were for not believing or simply not caring about religion).

I've basically pushed myself to try and accept the idea that there is not a higher power responsible for our existence. I've actually wanted to believe it. Quiet simply, I can't. It seems far more complicated to believe we are just here by cosmic incidence vs believing we are here because the universe and all life within it was created from a higher power. That being said, I find it intriguing and interesting to see what the thoughts are of those who think either there is no god, or that they don't know/don't care/both. Overall this has been a good thread and I will be looking at the Stephen Hawking videos when I have some time available.

Last edited by TXboomerang; 05-30-2011 at 02:22 PM..
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Old 05-30-2011, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radrook View Post
The only observable pattern that we have in nature upon which to make an inductive leap in relation to living things in our visible universe is that living things always proceed from livng things. Therefore all life proceeds from a living source of life. That is the only justifiable conclusion that inductive reasoning provides. Any other conclusion violates the principles of inductive reasoning and therefore becomes illogical and unjustified.
So what you're saying is that all life forms must have come from other life forms, and the only possible way that could happen is if the universe has always existed and there has always been life on it. So why do you keep saying God created everything when you clearly don't believe it?
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Old 05-30-2011, 03:56 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXboomerang View Post

If the "big bang" was the so called beginning of the universe, where did the matter come from that allowed the big bang to happen?
You're confusing "Big Bang" with all sorts of matter just popping out of a Planck-sized nugget of energy. In reality, the Big Bang was an expansion of time and space, before which there was none, and was pure energy. There was no such thing as "matter" when the Big Bang occurred.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TXboomerang View Post
Once the rapid expansion of our universe was underway, how were there any laws at all, such as the speed of light, time, space, etc?
We call them "Laws" because, in every way possible, they resemble governing principles to we humans. In reality, they are explanations for how the universe operates in certain ways. Newton's Laws were not specifically derived for some cosmic purpose so that some angry-minded man in the 17th century could discover them. They are merely descriptions of how the universe operates. Why it operates in that particular fashion is a mystery we are still working on, i.e., Higgs-Boson, String Theory/M-Theory, Many Universes, etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TXboomerang View Post
With all of the things that happen such as molecular reactions, atomic and subatomic particles and their behaviors, how did all of those individual elements and parts of matter begin behaving the way they did and why do they continue to behave in a scientifically predictable fashion.
Because they are governed by four characteristic properties of physics: Electromagnetism, Gravity, the Strong Nuclear Force, and the Weak Nuclear Force. Supersymmetry makes attempts at combining these four forces together immediately after the Big Bang. Thus far, they've been very successful with the caveat of gravity being so much weaker than the other three forces. What was born from this understood gravitational weakness was the search for a "gravity particle." That has subsequently developed into the previously mentioned theories I brought up: Higgs-Bosons, String Theory/M-Theory, etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TXboomerang View Post
Just a little more info on me: I do believe we were created. I accept that it is possible we were not. I believe our universe is billions of years old. I believe that evolution definitely occurs at some level and have not ruled out any specific parts of evolution in my mind.
It's typically a lack of imagination or understanding of some facet of science that leads to superstitious nonsense. A lot of people who use homeopathic remedies do so because they don't understand basic fundamentals of health science. Those who believe we were created often do so because it either conflicts with their previously held religious beliefs or they don't understand basic biology, physics, etc...

I highly suggest you read Brian Greene's "The Fabric of the Cosmos" to get a better understanding of the lay principles of what you're asking. It covers everything from quantum spookiness to why time flows in a certain direction (entropy), and why the speed of light determines our perception of time. It's a fantastic book written in a relatively easy to understand way and will open your eyes to a wonderful world you never knew about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TXboomerang View Post
Basically, I enjoy pop cosmology and astronomy and am just trying to find out what non believers think when it comes to "how" all matter and reactions, etc came into existence from absolutely nothing. To me, creation is the only thing that makes sense, but I am open to explanations.
Again, nothing makes sense because you're unaware of the science behind the explanations that are out there. It's true that not every single iota of questions can be answered by our current knowledge. However, our knowledge of the topic over the last century has increased so incredibly much that what you're asking is answered so easily that if that's the only barrier between you and a Creator... You're in a for a rude awakening when you begin to understand what we actually do know about.
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Old 05-30-2011, 04:00 PM
 
Location: Berkeley, CA
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It's not that we know how the universe was created. It's that we just don't believe saying "God made it" is a good explanation for what is not known.
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Old 05-30-2011, 06:05 PM
 
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You may want to read this article:

Victor Stenger: Did the Universe Come From Nothing?
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Old 05-30-2011, 07:04 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0YEdld3Qdg
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Old 05-30-2011, 07:45 PM
 
Location: Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
No idea. Where did the matter come from that allowed your god to 'create' everything?

Why do you think that non-believers think everything came from nothing? I've never met one who thinks that.

OK...so how did that happen out of absolutely nothing?
Simple . . . God created it. ah but I can already anticipate your next post, what created your God? God needs no explanation, he/she/it just simply IS
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Old 05-30-2011, 09:24 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug S. 123 View Post
Simple . . . God created it. ah but I can already anticipate your next post, what created your God? God needs no explanation, he/she/it just simply IS
A belief which leaves no place for doubt is not a belief; it is a superstition.
José Bergamín
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Old 05-31-2011, 03:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXboomerang View Post
Just wanting to get some honest opinions and ideas as to how atheists think we came into existence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TXboomerang View Post
I don't claim to know that.

You have essentially answered your own question but from your own perspective. You have little left to do now other than to realize that the answer you just gave is the one we just as validly give too quite often.

You are making claims, such as there was a creator who created us. Yet when asked for the specifics you simply answer with “I do not know”.

Science is doing the same thing. We can show all the evidence which backs up the idea of a big bang etc etc, but when you get into other questions like “Where did the thing come from that banged” we similarly have to answer “I do not know”.

The difference between us is that your side of the conversation is inventing extra things… such as a god… for which you have no evidence…. And moving ALL the same questions us non-believers had one step further backwards to that god.

We have many of the same questions as you, but we ask them about the universe we actually know exists. You are asking most of the same questions, but you ask them about what appears to be an entirely imaginary entity for which no one appears to have a scrap of evidence to lend even a modicum of credence to the existence of.

The other difference is that those of us looking for a scientific answer are actually making some progress. We do not have all the answers yet, but they are coming in drips. As one user suggested already look into the works of Hawking. But I also strongly suggest you watch the you tube talk by Lawrence Krauss entitled “A universe from nothing”.

Humans do not like not having the answers to questions. This does not give us lee way to make anything up we like just because AN answer is better than NO answer at all.

Also as a thought experiment spend some time asking yourself why you assume "nothing" is the default from which "something" had to come and so something from nothing has to be explained? Why, for example, could the existence of something not be the default and the onus is on people to explain why there should be nothing at any point.
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Old 05-31-2011, 02:37 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,310 posts, read 10,339,568 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug S. 123 View Post
Simple . . . God created it. ah but I can already anticipate your next post, what created your God? God needs no explanation, he/she/it just simply IS
Fair enough! What is good for you is good for me too. I claim that the universe has always existed and needs no explanation, it just simply IS.

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."
-Christopher Hitchens
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