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Old 05-31-2011, 03:02 PM
 
Location: Emerald Coast, FL
5,322 posts, read 8,368,517 times
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I don't think god is the answer. That begs the question, where did god come from, or who made god? And where did god get the material and energy to create a universe? Invoking god just pushes the question - and any answer - back another level, and adds the restriction that you can't or shouldn't question it! take it on faith! Take my word for it - as if you should believe anyone who tells you that and then invokes a "higher authority" that you shouldn't question them either! Can you spell s-c-a-m? That's certainly not a very satisfying conclusion.

While the real answer isn't known, it may be knowable. I personally think that the universe (actually the multiverse of which ours is just one minute bubble - technically often called a "brane") is infinite and always existed in some form. It has no intelligence, just natural laws that determine the characteristics in any one "bubble" and that lead to the generation of new bubbles. It's not as "easy" an answer as an unknowable god, but seems far more realistic.
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Old 05-31-2011, 05:26 PM
 
Location: Ohio
13,900 posts, read 10,791,229 times
Reputation: 7242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Fair enough! What is good for you is good for me too. I claim that the universe has always existed and needs no explanation, it just simply IS.

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."
-Christopher Hitchens
Ah your a fan of the Hitch are you?

Let me tell you, I was thoroughly dishappointed after reading his book "God is Not Great; How Religion Poisons Everything" I opened it expecting to find some clarity and evidence to reassert my stance as an Agnostic . . . instead I was faced with the dribble of his own opinions. He never explained how "religion" poisons everything, but rather, provided an endless amount of examples of how the people who practice religion poisons everything.

Im currently reading "The Grand Design" by acclaimed Steven Hawking, we'll see if he can do any better.
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Old 05-31-2011, 05:59 PM
 
Location: USA
870 posts, read 835,224 times
Reputation: 288
Quote:
Kenshsi wrote:

So what you're saying is that all life forms must have come from other life forms,
God is alive and all life proceeds from him.


Quote:
and the only possible way that could happen is if the universe has always existed and there has always been life on it.
That's not what I said. I said life comes from life. Actually, there is absolutely NOTHING that I said to justify that erroneous understanding.

Quote:
So why do you keep saying God created everything when you clearly don't believe it?
Because that's not what I said. That's your misinterpretation of what I clearly said.

BTW

Why do you consider obvious misrepresentations of another person's view a rebuttal? Or are you merely striving to annoy? I mean for some anti-religionist atheists and agnostics successfully annoying a religionist via all means possible constitutes a mission accomplished on behalf of their anti-religious jihad. Playing dumb in order to misrepresent is only one trick in their bag.
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Old 05-31-2011, 08:42 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
1,530 posts, read 2,605,817 times
Reputation: 907
Let me try this again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radrook View Post
God is alive and all life proceeds from him.
Quote:
I said life comes from life.
So what life did God come from?
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Old 05-31-2011, 10:31 PM
 
Location: NC, USA
7,088 posts, read 13,048,650 times
Reputation: 3984
Quote:
Originally Posted by TaoistDude View Post
I don't think god is the answer. That begs the question, where did god come from, or who made god?

Someone with a vivid imagination.
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Old 05-31-2011, 11:06 PM
 
Location: Rome, Georgia
2,706 posts, read 3,338,645 times
Reputation: 1915
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Fair enough! What is good for you is good for me too. I claim that the universe has always existed and needs no explanation, it just simply IS.

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."
-Christopher Hitchens
I'm pretty sure that we know that the Universe is finite, and came into existence about 13.5 billion years ago or so. I have heard about the idea of "multiverses" in which matter is reorganized into a never ending chain of universes(I think I understand this right?), but am not sure what evidence there is to support it. Seems to border more on the metaphysical than the scientific at this point.
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Old 06-01-2011, 02:29 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,310 posts, read 10,346,709 times
Reputation: 2612
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug S. 123 View Post
Ah your a fan of the Hitch are you?
Not particularly.

Quote:
He never explained how "religion" poisons everything,....
Perhaps he's using the same tactics as you and just saying ...it needs no explanation, it just simply IS. Huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgiafrog View Post
I'm pretty sure that we know that the Universe is finite, and came into existence about 13.5 billion years ago or so.
The present one yes, but before that........??

Quote:
I have heard about the idea of "multiverses" in which matter is reorganized into a never ending chain of universes(I think I understand this right?), but am not sure what evidence there is to support it.
Me neither. I'm just going along with Occam's Razor. The Universe exists...it has always existed in some form or another. Doesn't hurt the brain as much.
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Old 06-01-2011, 04:15 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,283,006 times
Reputation: 2973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug S. 123 View Post
He never explained how "religion" poisons everything, but rather, provided an endless amount of examples of how the people who practice religion poisons everything.
A bit off topic for the thread don't you think... but since it is out there I will reply all the same. I think he did explain how it poisons everything in the book... but having said that the subtitle is actually one part of the book that he himself did not write. It was stuck on the cover by the publishing company.

What I would advise is that you look up you tube for the talk he did at Google Talks. He talks there about how he did not actually write the subtitle, but for the fun of it he was going to do his talk on defending the subtitle. He goes on then to explain very clearly why and how religion poisons everything.

The talk included a long Q&A so it is not as long as it first looks when you open the video. You could just listen to the talk and turn off at the Q&A.
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Old 06-01-2011, 02:09 PM
 
6,760 posts, read 10,434,520 times
Reputation: 2996
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
The difference between us is that your side of the conversation is inventing extra things… such as a god… for which you have no evidence…. And moving ALL the same questions us non-believers had one step further backwards to that god.
At the risk of attracting sarcasmic ire or ridicule, I will just say that god is not an invention to me. I consider myself spiritual more than religous. I don't care much for organized religion and most of my beliefs in god are focused around prayer and meditation and what I have felt in my heart and soul, not what someone else told me to feel. As I've mentioned before, I have tried to believe that god does not exist, occasionally I have intensely tried to believe it. I've also tried to just not care. My feelings of connectedness to god in a spiritual way is something that I simply cannot deny. It is there, and I feel completely comfortable with it because I know my belief does not exist out of fear, nor does it exist out of being "programmed" to believe it because my beliefs are far different from what was taught to me in my childhood.
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Old 06-01-2011, 07:22 PM
 
Location: USA
870 posts, read 835,224 times
Reputation: 288
Quote:
I don't think god is the answer. That begs the question, where did god come from, or who made god?



Where is the universe? Where is the location where the universe is? Where is the location of the location where the universe is? Can there indeed be an ultimate location that itself is locationless but which itself encompasses all other locations. After all, our senses tell us that anything that existes has to have a location-right? Taking that to its logical conclusion brings us to the inevitable realization that existence as it is perceived is impossible. If indeed it's imposible based on the exigencies of our senses then we aren't perceiving things as they really are but only as our neural hardwiring permits us to perceive them. That's why Hume challenged the very necessity of causality and attributed the concept to temporal priority of an event and spacial proximity.


You demand that God have a creator based on your observation in this dimension in this universe that things require a cause. That requires that you reject the possibility of a causeless being based on scanty evidence. Why scanty? Well, because as physicists point out we are only able to view a microscopic part of the universe. The part we are unable to detect makes the detectable part look like an atom in comparison. So based on what we observe in the comparatively minute detectable universe it's illogical to extrapolate to the parts we can't detect.


Are all living things dependent on cause? The Bible tells us that all are except for one. To say that's an impossibility is tantamount to saying that there can be no ultimate location for the realm of reality. Are we willing to say that? If we are then we are an impossibility ourselves. Unless of course we make room for subjectivity of perception which can indeed be leading us astray in relation to causality and creating difficulties for us in our ability to comprehend an eternal uncreated entity.
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